EU Referendum Vote - Poll

ICBM

Fretwired said:

...especially the French arms industry which wants to sell kit to the Yanks as the UK winds down it's defence industries.

The French don't know much about American arms procurement policy then .

Have we *ever* sold anything military to the US? Even the Harrier was built by them under licence rather than bought.

Fretwired

ICBM said:

Fretwired said:

...especially the French arms industry which wants to sell kit to the Yanks as the UK winds down it's defence industries.

The French don't know much about American arms procurement policy then .

Have we *ever* sold anything military to the US? Even the Harrier was built by them under licence rather than bought.

US-UK Defence Trade Cooperation Treaty

The treaty came into force in the UK and the US on 13 April 2012 and is recognition of the close ties between our 2 countries.
The treaty’s aims

• to streamline and improve defence export processes between both countries
• to give UK industry access to United States government solicitations and contracts
• to further and protect the essential security and defence of both the US and UK
• to speed up the supply of US made equipment to the UK as well as to the US
• to improve interoperability between UK and US forces
• to support military operations and facilitate cooperation between both UK and US defence industries

The UK is the largest foreign supplier of defence equipment to the US and the US/UK Defence Trade Cooperation Treaty is another tool for defence articles and services to pass between the 2 nations.

We sell high-tech gear like the armour on US tanks and BAe's railgun is being installed on US warships. The US ordered £500 million worth of Bradley fighting vehicles and £50 million of thermal imaging sights from BAe Systems.

Emp_Fab

ICBM said:

Have we *ever* sold anything military to the US?

Our unswerving loyalty and obsequience ?

Oh, no... sorry... we gave them that for free.

Sambostar

And we get to sell off our old decrepit shite to the Ukrainians, it's a win, win and eventually we might even be allowed guns again.

Nitefly

Rocker said: Ok guys, time to get off the pot. Time to predict the result. Which may or may not be what you want. Percentage IN or OUT. An RTE London correspondent forecast 51% IN to 49% OUT. She wrote that it is the older generation that want OUT. Anyway let us have your forecast... @Rocker - I'm not going to make any predictions, but I will contradict your RTE London correspondent.  

It depends on how you define the "older generation", of course, but to my knowledge my wife (63), my mother (88), my aunt (87), my brother (50), and myself (67) are all voting to remain.

ICBM

Fretwired said:

We sell high-tech gear like the armour on US tanks and BAe's railgun is being installed on US warships. The US ordered £500 million worth of Bradley fighting vehicles and £50 million of thermal imaging sights from BAe Systems.

Interesting, and I didn't know that, but how much is the figure other way round? I would be *very* surprised if the balance is even close to equal rather than in favour of the US. Being the largest foreign supplier is fairly meaningless if it's a tiny fraction of what we buy from them.

Emp_Fab

Currently, remain is in the lead.

Sambostar

This is one of those things.  I will vote out, but I am seriously 50:50 on it, but you gotta vote.  Brits never like to rock the boat and always tread the conservative path and stay with the devil they know, I'm probably the worst for it, hanging on to my Mk5 Transit and all, but people need a shake up and to realise that their vote can actually count for something and make a difference rather than this widespread apathy and continual whinging.  Like a brick in the face. I honestly don't think things will change much either way and I certainly have nothing to lose.

But these snide wankers tactics on either side really boil my piss (Patent owed to Emp).

I predict a lot of Brits will have a turn of head at the ballot box and vote remain.  Especially now that the Torygraph is on side.

hungrymark

Drew_fx;1098047" said:

I really want to quote some of the things I've seen, but I legitimately fear that if I do and they see that I've done so, it could fuck up chances for my band to get gigs. And with good reason - an argument I had with someone I knew (over feminism if you can believe that) resulted in my ex-communication no more reviews from their music blog, and generally a shitty attitude from a few people all round. How fucked up is that!



Suffice to say, I'm a bit ashamed of my generation right now.

I have the same feelings. It was the same with the election a year ago. If you voted tory you were painted as an evil selfish bastard who actively hated the poor.

ICBM

hungrymark said:

If you voted tory you were painted as an evil selfish bastard who actively hated the poor.

I think you've accidentally added a couple of extra words in there.

Sambostar

Drew is old fashioned.  Old fashioned is best.  I'm old fashioned, lot's of us are old fashioned.  I just think it's funny how popular culture has kind of fenced itself in and enslaved itself and is fundamentally self defeating in the very issues that it tries to be so vocal about.  I don't do Reddit or Facebook or Twitter though, those things are kind of like platforms for people with mental issues.

Chalky

ICBM;1098428" said:

Fretwired said:We sell high-tech gear like the armour on US tanks and BAe's railgun is being installed on US warships. The US ordered £500 million worth of Bradley fighting vehicles and £50 million of thermal imaging sights from BAe Systems.










Interesting, and I didn't know that, but how much is the figure other way round? I would be *very* surprised if the balance is even close to equal rather than in favour of the US. Being the largest foreign supplier is fairly meaningless if it's a tiny fraction of what we buy from them.

Ha! @ICBM has just used 'wife logic'!

First, the absolutist argument - when did we *ever* sell military stuff to the US
Response by @Fretwired - lots of times, we are their largest foreign supplier
Second, the dismiss & switch argument - well I bet its way less than they sell us!

On completely losing the first argument, 'wife logic' says dismiss that argument and its outcome and switch to another argument that has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ORIGINAL DISCUSSION!

Please don't move to the third step of 'wife logic' which is to claim that the whole discussion SHOULD have been about the irrelevant topic - that would be truly pathetic

)

ICBM

No, I'm just surprised we've sold as much as £550 million-worth of stuff to the US. I'd also be interested to know what the reciprocal figure is, if that's going to be held up as an example of a good deal. While we're at it, the total we've spent on American weaponry over the last seventy years vs the total amount they've spent on British stuff over the same period would also probably be useful.

I don't know these figures, and I would be genuinely interested if it turns out that we get a much better deal from the US than they get from us. I would also be astonished.

Being the largest foreign supplier to the US military is meaningless if the US military buys almost nothing from anyone outside the US. This is the same sort of logic that says we're better off trading with the US than with the EU, given that we're the largest European exporter to the US. So what, if it's a fraction of the business we do with Europe. You need to know the relative figures.

So if you do know them, please educate me.

Chalky

But the original discussion point was @Fretwired citing why the EU will want TTIP, and he gave the French arms industry as an example.

You've now changed completely randomly to the imbalance in the UK-US arms trade. We could equally randomly discuss the imbalance in the UK-NL flowers market, the UK-FR wine market, or the UK-GE car market! None of which has any more or less relevance. )

ICBM

No, I'm referring to why the French arms industry won't do as well as they possibly think they will selling to the US. Because we haven't.

Fretwired then quoted figures showing how well we're apparently doing. Fine - I would now like to know if that amount matters much in the grand scheme of things. Nothing random or irrelevant in it at all. It's also related to claims we're doing well trading with the US because we do sell more to them than any other European nation. I don't doubt that's true, but it's less than the equivalent amount of business we do with the EU. These relative figures matter if we're thinking of leaving the EU and setting up trade deals with other places, eg the US.

Trying to make out it's not relevant rather than providing me with the actual figures is interesting though .

Chalky

ICBM;1098532" said:

No, I'm referring to why the French arms industry won't do as well as they possibly think they will selling to the US. Because we haven't.

Fretwired then quoted figures showing how well we're apparently doing. Fine - I would now like to know if that amount matters much in the grand scheme of things. Nothing random or irrelevant in it at all. It's also related to claims we're doing well trading with the US because we do sell more to them than any other European nation. I don't doubt that's true, but it's less than the equivalent amount of business we do with the EU. These relative figures matter if we're thinking of leaving the EU and setting up trade deals with other places, eg the US.

Trying to make out it's not relevant rather than providing me with the actual figures is interesting though .

Only if you think our trade with the EU disappears - which it cannot.

Is something preventing you from googling UK -US arms trade figures?

ICBM

Chalky said:

Only if you think our trade with the EU disappears - which it cannot.

Not at all - but it *may* fall. How much also matters, because it's much larger than the trade with anywhere else, so even a small drop could make a big difference.

I don't know the answers to this and I'm sure you don't either - which is not a put-down, since no-one does. But it does put a big question mark over whether we will be as well off outside the EU as the optimists assert.

hungrymark

ICBM;1098483" said:

hungrymark said:If you voted tory you were painted as an evil selfish bastard who actively hated the poor.





I think you've accidentally added a couple of extra words in there.

QED

Chalky

The only way it can be made to fall is trade protectionism or prohibition. Now if you can explain how the EU could go about that I'd really like to know. As I explained elsewhere, if they put a tariff on our cars imported into the EU, we would slap a tariff on EU cars imported to the UK. It would never get even near that as the EU car makers and engineering unions would offer Merkel's head on a plate long before that point.

As the old City saying goes - If you owe the bank £1,000 its your problem. If you owe the bank £1,000,000 its THEIR problem. We spend a fortune with EU business, giving many countries a fat trade surplus in this time of EU austerity. You don't kill the golden goose...

hungrymark

@ICBM, a bit of googling tells you that the UK to US arms exports during 2010 to 2015 were worth around £2.5 billion. US to UK in 2014 (iirc) was around £2.8 billion. So they sell about 5 times as much to us as we do to them. But then you consider that their arms industry is worth about ten times as much as ours. It's not as much in their direction but not inconsiderable either.