EU Referendum Vote - Poll

digitalscream

quarky said:

No, I think you undersell their power, and the way it has increased over the past few years.

Based on what, exactly?

Fretwired

digitalscream said:

Fretwired said:

digitalscream said:

Apologies if this has already been mentioned (19 pages...too much, even for me), but I'm still baffled by the assertion that the EU is run by unelected, unaccountable people.

Look at it...

European Parliament - all the MEPs, who we vote for every time. We have the joint-highest number of MEPs in the parliament (just shy of 10% of the total), so we actually have more influence here than any other country.

I don't want to be rude but you are being naive. The MEPs can't make or recommend law. They merely vote but most follow what their governments tell them - the laws are made further up the food change. I can tell you we have zero influence. On laws we didn't agree with (as in rubber stamp) where we recommended changes we were voted down 100 per cent of the time.

You're not being rude, you're deliberately removing the context for the quote where I actually said exactly that in order to make your point.

digitalscream said:

European Council - all the heads of government (which, given that every country has representative democracy in place, means that they were elected by the population)

European Parliament - all the MEPs, who we vote for every time. We have the joint-highest number of MEPs in the parliament (just shy of 10% of the total), so we actually have more influence here than any other country.

European Commission - this is the one people usually mean, because they aren't elected. However, they can only propose laws, and are bound to enact the decisions of the European Parliament whether they agree with it or not. Basically, they're civil servants for the EU.

If the MEPs vote for what their governments tell them to, then that is democracy in action. They're representing the views of the people that we voted into power.

The fact that we've been voted down is still democracy in action, but on a Union scale rather than on a national scale.

You're actually demonstrating precisely what I said here:

digitalscream said:

My only conclusion is that people are confusing "unelected" with "elected people who don't agree with me".

My comment referred to your statement about 'influence' due to the number of MEPs - the number of MEPs is somewhat irrelevant as the decisions are made further up the food chain and merely ratified, not debated. That's not democracy.

quarky

Modulus_Amps said:

digitalscream said:

European Parliament - all the MEPs, who we vote for every time. We have the joint-highest number of MEPs in the parliament (just shy of 10% of the total), so we actually have more influence here than any other country.

I think that sounds good on paper, but in practice we act more out than in, so are less likely to garner support we need to stop votes going through or to push the ones we do want through.

Per person, our influence is much lower than many other countries. The EU average MEP/voter is 486k/1. In the UK is almost double, 880k/1.

UnclePsychosis

@emp_fab

A study by LSE had found that immigrants have no negative effect on UK wages and that immigrants actually create opportunities for British born workers.

http://www.theguardian.com/money/2016/may/11/eu-migrants-had-no-negative-effect-on-uk-wages-says-lse

digitalscream

UnclePsychosis said:

@emp_fab

A study by LSE had found that immigrants have no negative effect on UK wages and that immigrants actually create opportunities for British born workers.

http://www.theguardian.com/money/2016/may/11/eu-migrants-had-no-negative-effect-on-uk-wages-says-lse

And, given that the minimum wage is set to rise massively over the next few years regardless of who's in power, average wages will increase whether we have immigrants or not.

quarky

digitalscream said:

quarky said:

No, I think you undersell their power, and the way it has increased over the past few years.

Based on what, exactly?

As I wrote above, blocking mergers, the investigations in google, Microsoft, etc., the ability to supervise National budgets, etc. All of that ON TOP of the powers that they list on their website is a hell of a lot for a bunch of unelected "civil servants" . And that is without mentioning the problems of how the Commission works.

There is a good (well, I think so) article here about it.

Fretwired

digitalscream said:

Modulus_Amps said:

digitalscream said:

European Parliament - all the MEPs, who we vote for every time. We have the joint-highest number of MEPs in the parliament (just shy of 10% of the total), so we actually have more influence here than any other country.

I think that sounds good on paper, but in practice we act more out than in, so are less likely to garner support we need to stop votes going through or to push the ones we do want through.

I'm inclined to agree - if we sent really capable negotiators to the table, who can act more out of a common goal than self-interest, we might get somewhere. In reality, the people we send are effectively the also-rans.

I'm sorry but we won't. Let's look at this from a French perspective. The UK is obstructive and only interested to promoting laws and rules that suit it. The UK is not a team player.

I went on a business trip to the EU commission last year - the level of hostility for the UK was eye-opening. Most of the other 27 countries want closer ties and, besides Germany, less free market. There was a feeling the UK is holding the EU back.

We could send the best negotiators we have - we won't get anywhere as we are pretty much outnumbered 27 to 1. Negotiation requires compromise - when you start talking about red lines (Cameron) you lose the plot. There are a number of key things - free movement, benefits in home states being available to all EU migrants who move which are cast in stone.

We either sign up to the EU integration plan, take the Euro or leave. But no, we will continue to cherry pick what we like and moan about what we don't like. We're the Victor Meldrew of Europe and it's embarrassing.

quarky

UnclePsychosis said:

..and that immigrants actually create opportunities for British born workers.

http://www.theguardian.com/money/2016/may/11/eu-migrants-had-no-negative-effect-on-uk-wages-says-lse

So the answer to not having enough jobs, is bringing more people into an economy. I have heard that a few times but I don't believe that *anyone* actually believes that do they?

Chalky

digitalscream;1100095" said:

Modulus_Amps said:







digitalscream said:



European Parliament - all the MEPs, who we vote for every time. We have the joint-highest number of MEPs in the parliament (just shy of 10% of the total), so we actually have more influence here than any other country.








I think that sounds good on paper, but in practice we act more out than in, so are less likely to garner support we need to stop votes going through or to push the ones we do want through.










I'm inclined to agree - if we sent really capable negotiators to the table, who can act more out of a common goal than self-interest, we might get somewhere. In reality, the people we send are effectively the also-rans.

No they are not. But they cannot bridge the chasm between the Franco-German vision of the future EU, which is closer union, and the UK position that wants a looser union.

Fretwired

digitalscream said:

Fretwired said:

UnclePsychosis said:

Gove caught telling big fat fibs again.

http://www.ifs.org.uk/about/blog/346

Not a Gove fan but how on Earth can he be lying? He thinks X the IFS thinks Y. Both are estimates/assumptions .. neither are cast iron facts. The IFS agrees with his £8 billion figure but makes assumptions as to what might happen. Gove may be optimistic but he could be right. The IFS could be right and Gove could be made to look stupid. However, only hindsight with provide us with insight.

Because he said that the IFS supported his position, which is the exact opposite of what they said. He lied about what they'd actually said in order to make his position sound more authoritative.

Seriously, are you so entrenched in your position that you refuse to read what's right in front of you?

Got it .. I didn't read it properly. Apologies ...

UnclePsychosis

quarky;1100116" said:

UnclePsychosis said:



..and that immigrants actually create opportunities for British born workers.



http://www.theguardian.com/money/2016/may/11/eu-migrants-had-no-negative-effect-on-uk-wages-says-lse










So the answer to not having enough jobs, is bringing more people into an economy. I have heard that a few times but I don't believe that *anyone* actually believes that do they?

The number of jobs isn't fixed. Immigrants buy goods and use services, increasing opportunities for others to supply said goods and services.

Modulus_Amps

in circa 2005 , I worked for a manufacturing company in a small town that employed around 100 employees, around this time there was a mass influx of Polish into Scotland, the factory employed about 40 Polish staff, most of which could not speak English and many of them had to be taught to weld and do the jobs they had been imported/employed for. The existing British Staff were not happy about any of this and would not share any good views about free movement of people.

On the other hand a few years ago I had to find a piping designer to work on my design team, I ended up employing a gentleman from Romania as there was pretty much no suitable UK based candidate. he came with the skills and could speak English.

oddball

Stay - economy is slowing down already up to the vote due to people curbing their spending waiting to see the outcome, if we leave its going to get worse whilst they then wait to see what happens and so the domino effect happens as things nose dive and people still hold onto their cash. Personally i couldnt give a monkeys about immigration, as long as they come to work and pay tax I see no problem (as the vast majority do)

quarky

UnclePsychosis said:

quarky;1100116" said:

UnclePsychosis said:

..and that immigrants actually create opportunities for British born workers.

http://www.theguardian.com/money/2016/may/11/eu-migrants-had-no-negative-effect-on-uk-wages-says-lse


So the answer to not having enough jobs, is bringing more people into an economy. I have heard that a few times but I don't believe that *anyone* actually believes that do they?

The number of jobs isn't fixed. Immigrants buy goods and use services, increasing opportunities for others to supply said goods and services.

Of course they are not fixed. But thinking that we could wipe out unemployment by bringing in another 500,000 (on top of the net 300k+ each year) people is crazy talk.

Phil_aka_Pip

oddball said:

Stay - economy is slowing down already up to the vote due to people curbing their spending waiting to see the outcome, if we leave its going to get worse whilst they then wait to see what happens and so the domino effect happens as things nose dive and people still hold onto their cash. Personally i couldnt give a monkeys about immigration, as long as they come to work and pay tax I see no problem (as the vast majority do)

well, if they could come to work and pay tax without requiring any housing, medical care, teaching for their children or any other resources this country is short of, that would be fine

ICBM

Phil_aka_Pip said:

well, if they could come to work and pay tax without requiring any housing, medical care, teaching for their children or any other resources this country is short of, that would be fine

Which this country needs more of for the benefit of everyone, and which will be easier to pay for with the taxes paid by immigrants - and quite likely built by them too, since we don't seem to want to train anyone to do building jobs these days… hence why there are so many foreign ones here.

Drew_TNBD

So has anyone changed their mind during these 20 odd pages?

quarky

There has been a couple of times over the past few weeks where I very seriously considered changing my vote. But, nope, still out.

chillidoggy

I haven't.

hobbio

Drew_fx said:

So has anyone changed their mind during these 20 odd pages?

@Drew_fx ;

I changed my mind from Remain to Leave, although in truth it wasn't because of this thread.