So, 4 days on, were Remain scaremongering or not?

Sporky

Handsome_Chris said:

No what I am saying is that we all need to work together.

So everyone who wanted to stay in should betray their principles and start actively working to leave, in order to bail out a decision they didn't agree with?

The neat hook here is that any remainer who points this out can be accused of betraying their country and other nationalist rhetoric. >:D<

lloyd

professorben said:

Clarky;1130580" said:

octatonic said:

I've distanced myself from a motorbike riding group that I am was a member of because of 'we're going to take out country back from the foreigners' football terraces style language that I heard over the last few weeks.

They don't mean me- apparently I'm an 'OK sort of immigrant' but fuck them and their intolerance.I won't give my tacit approval to their bullshit.It has somewhat isolated me out here in Oxfordshire, but I'd rather find a different group of friends to spend my time with.





makes me feel ashamed to be English..we ain't all like that

Just 52%

Sick of this shit-not everyone who voted leave is a racist.

mellowsun

lloyd said:

Sick of this shit-not everyone who voted leave is a racist.

Agreed. I lay the blame firmly with Farage and co who have whipped this up, and newspapers such as the Sun that have legitimised it. 

 And for the current government for being hopeless and seemingly not in control.

octatonic

I agree.

Definitely not more than 20% of the population are racists.

paulmapp8306

paulmapp8306 said:

Me you mean.

This is true - but it was mostly the working class that voted out so ?????

RaymondLin said:

Here are my 2 cents

1. We need to trade with the EU, even if we leave, we can't not trade, because that would be econmical suicide.
2. In order to trade with the EU, we need to get on board with lots of regulations and also pay a fee. Think of it like a private member's club. You need to abide by the club's rules and pay an entry fee or you can stay outside in the rain.
3. The rule on free movement of workers is a cornerstone of the EU. If you want to trade, you have to sign up with that. It is almost like if you want to come inside, you have to take off your shoes.

For example, Norway is not in the EU but can trade, in return they pay a fee, and actually works out MORE than what we pay per capita. Makes sense as they are not an offical member, so pay more than an official member. They also have to sign up to Free movement of workers. Except Norway can afford this increase because they have a lot more oil reserve than us.

We have a pretty unique and sweet deal before, we even have our own currency so during the 2008/2009 recession we wasn't hit as hard as others. We also had a seat on the table help shape EU laws.

Norway on the other hand do not, they have to abide by any law that EU passes and implement them, no questions asks.

So right now, the best we can hope for is going on the similar deal that Norway has.

1. Sign up to 75% of EU regulation
2. Have free movement of workers
3. Pay more memebers' fee than we did before
4. No influence of EU legislations. Have to implement them anyway

Basically we are pretty much begging to get back to a worse deal than we had last week, with billions knocked out of or stock market and companies value, pensions. Our country's credit rating has taken a massive knock with increase cost of borrowing rising, the political landscape is going to crap, Boris has gone into hiding since and the world thinks we are insane !!! (when everyone else wants to join the EU, we want to leave it). Honestly, what we are trying to do is get back to the position in terms of trade that we were as of last week….and sign up to 75% of the legislation we were on and we don't really have that £350 million (not that we had that much anyway) to spend on anything because not only that has been wiped off due to the stock market and the credit rating drop. We have to pay MORE than before per capita now to trade.

Its like we've shot ourselves in the left foot, and then take an axe to the right kneecap.

But…we can say we have our soverienty back…..woot hoo !!!! I wonder if my bank manager take that as a mortgage payment if I lose my job.

My main problem with that is terminology. I and many others have no problem with free movement of workers. Free movement of people on the other hand is an issue. Basically, if you have a job to come to your welcome (as your a worker). If you don't your not (your not a worker but under eu rules you can still come), Uncontrolled movement is the one thing we can't agree too. Not sure if you have to have access to the free market to trade do you? Can't you trade without one but have tariff applied, or are those tariff part of access. Surly the us trades with Europe without free movement, as does Japan etc. Personally, I'm in the mood to fu#k off and never trade wirh Europe again if we can't trade without free movement. not least because they refuse to budge on any meaningful aspect, and Imo why we voted to leave in the first place.

lloyd

Although I would say that if you're a racist, you probably voted leave. But it's an important distinction.

Handsome_Chris

Sporky;1130636" said:

Handsome_Chris said:





No what I am saying is that we all need to work together.





So everyone who wanted to stay in should betray their principles and start actively working to leave, in order to bail out a decision they didn't agree with?



The neat hook here is that any remainer who points this out can be accused of betraying their country and other nationalist rhetoric. >:D<

I'll take being called a traitor. After following a democratic process I feel it would be betraying my principles to insist on re-doing the referendum until we "get it right". Lol

It's a shame we didn't ask for a re-doing on the 2001 general election. Maybe we could have done away with that Iraq and Afghanistan nastiness which has led to the distabilisation in the Middle East. Saying that, without the Labour victory of 2001, the UK's paralympic teams would not be as good.

Handsome_Chris

I'm not saying this vote will cause Wars.

octatonic

Handsome_Chris said:

I'm not saying this vote will cause Wars.

But you aren't saying it won't.

WezV

Civil war at this rate

Sporky

Handsome_Chris said:

It's a shame we didn't ask for a re-doing on the 2001 general election.

I think the do-over is a good idea in general.

Handsome_Chris

Sporky;1130674" said:

Handsome_Chris said:



It's a shame we didn't ask for a re-doing on the 2001 general election.










I think the do-over is a good idea in general.

Are you suggesting we go for a best of three? It seems a bit weird if you win the vote one week and you're on a draw next week.

Heartfeltdawn

quarky said:

Has war broken out in Europe yet?

Has the economic golden age of sovereignty broken out yet? 

No? 

Nil all draw then. 

Handsome_Chris

Rome was not built in a day.

Sambostar

prh777

paulmapp8306 said:

paulmapp8306 said:

Me you mean.

This is true - but it was mostly the working class that voted out so ?????

RaymondLin said:

Here are my 2 cents

1. We need to trade with the EU, even if we leave, we can't not trade, because that would be econmical suicide.
2. In order to trade with the EU, we need to get on board with lots of regulations and also pay a fee. Think of it like a private member's club. You need to abide by the club's rules and pay an entry fee or you can stay outside in the rain.
3. The rule on free movement of workers is a cornerstone of the EU. If you want to trade, you have to sign up with that. It is almost like if you want to come inside, you have to take off your shoes.

For example, Norway is not in the EU but can trade, in return they pay a fee, and actually works out MORE than what we pay per capita. Makes sense as they are not an offical member, so pay more than an official member. They also have to sign up to Free movement of workers. Except Norway can afford this increase because they have a lot more oil reserve than us.

We have a pretty unique and sweet deal before, we even have our own currency so during the 2008/2009 recession we wasn't hit as hard as others. We also had a seat on the table help shape EU laws.

Norway on the other hand do not, they have to abide by any law that EU passes and implement them, no questions asks.

So right now, the best we can hope for is going on the similar deal that Norway has.

1. Sign up to 75% of EU regulation
2. Have free movement of workers
3. Pay more memebers' fee than we did before
4. No influence of EU legislations. Have to implement them anyway

Basically we are pretty much begging to get back to a worse deal than we had last week, with billions knocked out of or stock market and companies value, pensions. Our country's credit rating has taken a massive knock with increase cost of borrowing rising, the political landscape is going to crap, Boris has gone into hiding since and the world thinks we are insane !!! (when everyone else wants to join the EU, we want to leave it). Honestly, what we are trying to do is get back to the position in terms of trade that we were as of last week….and sign up to 75% of the legislation we were on and we don't really have that £350 million (not that we had that much anyway) to spend on anything because not only that has been wiped off due to the stock market and the credit rating drop. We have to pay MORE than before per capita now to trade.

Its like we've shot ourselves in the left foot, and then take an axe to the right kneecap.

But…we can say we have our soverienty back…..woot hoo !!!! I wonder if my bank manager take that as a mortgage payment if I lose my job.

My main problem with that is terminology. I and many others have no problem with free movement of workers. Free movement of people on the other hand is an issue. Basically, if you have a job to come to your welcome (as your a worker). If you don't your not (your not a worker but under eu rules you can still come), Uncontrolled movement is the one thing we can't agree too. Not sure if you have to have access to the free market to trade do you? Can't you trade without one but have tariff applied, or are those tariff part of access. Surly the us trades with Europe without free movement, as does Japan etc. Personally, I'm in the mood to fu#k off and never trade wirh Europe again if we can't trade without free movement. not least because they refuse to budge on any meaningful aspect, and Imo why we voted to leave in the first place.

That's right. Don't you trade with those nasty Europeans. That'll teach them.

p90fool

Sporky;1130636" said:

Handsome_Chris said:





No what I am saying is that we all need to work together.





So everyone who wanted to stay in should betray their principles and start actively working to leave, in order to bail out a decision they didn't agree with?



The neat hook here is that any remainer who points this out can be accused of betraying their country and other nationalist rhetoric. >:D<

Exactly. I hate all this "what's done is done and now we all need to work together" bullshit.

I'm not working together with any racist morons who've fucked us all over in the name of "sovereignty" and have now realised they've been duped, despite all our warnings in advance of the referendum.

There's even a very subdued tone among the more articulate, non-racist Leavers on this forum this week compared to last.
You fucked up and you know it, thanks a fucking bunch guys.

paulmapp8306

prh777 said:

paulmapp8306 said:

paulmapp8306 said:

Me you mean.

This is true - but it was mostly the working class that voted out so ?????

RaymondLin said:

Here are my 2 cents

1. We need to trade with the EU, even if we leave, we can't not trade, because that would be econmical suicide.
2. In order to trade with the EU, we need to get on board with lots of regulations and also pay a fee. Think of it like a private member's club. You need to abide by the club's rules and pay an entry fee or you can stay outside in the rain.
3. The rule on free movement of workers is a cornerstone of the EU. If you want to trade, you have to sign up with that. It is almost like if you want to come inside, you have to take off your shoes.

For example, Norway is not in the EU but can trade, in return they pay a fee, and actually works out MORE than what we pay per capita. Makes sense as they are not an offical member, so pay more than an official member. They also have to sign up to Free movement of workers. Except Norway can afford this increase because they have a lot more oil reserve than us.

We have a pretty unique and sweet deal before, we even have our own currency so during the 2008/2009 recession we wasn't hit as hard as others. We also had a seat on the table help shape EU laws.

Norway on the other hand do not, they have to abide by any law that EU passes and implement them, no questions asks.

So right now, the best we can hope for is going on the similar deal that Norway has.

1. Sign up to 75% of EU regulation
2. Have free movement of workers
3. Pay more memebers' fee than we did before
4. No influence of EU legislations. Have to implement them anyway

Basically we are pretty much begging to get back to a worse deal than we had last week, with billions knocked out of or stock market and companies value, pensions. Our country's credit rating has taken a massive knock with increase cost of borrowing rising, the political landscape is going to crap, Boris has gone into hiding since and the world thinks we are insane !!! (when everyone else wants to join the EU, we want to leave it). Honestly, what we are trying to do is get back to the position in terms of trade that we were as of last week….and sign up to 75% of the legislation we were on and we don't really have that £350 million (not that we had that much anyway) to spend on anything because not only that has been wiped off due to the stock market and the credit rating drop. We have to pay MORE than before per capita now to trade.

Its like we've shot ourselves in the left foot, and then take an axe to the right kneecap.

But…we can say we have our soverienty back…..woot hoo !!!! I wonder if my bank manager take that as a mortgage payment if I lose my job.

My main problem with that is terminology. I and many others have no problem with free movement of workers. Free movement of people on the other hand is an issue. Basically, if you have a job to come to your welcome (as your a worker). If you don't your not (your not a worker but under eu rules you can still come), Uncontrolled movement is the one thing we can't agree too. Not sure if you have to have access to the free market to trade do you? Can't you trade without one but have tariff applied, or are those tariff part of access. Surly the us trades with Europe without free movement, as does Japan etc. Personally, I'm in the mood to fu#k off and never trade wirh Europe again if we can't trade without free movement. not least because they refuse to budge on any meaningful aspect, and Imo why we voted to leave in the first place.

That's right. Don't you trade with those nasty Europeans. That'll teach them.

Just feels that while Cameron says "we wont turnout backs on Europe" that its actually Europe turning their backs on us at the minute. 

If we can trade , with tariffs (ie not in a free market) like most of the world does (as far as I know) then fine - whats the issue with access to the "free market" really?  If however you cant trade at all without accepting the pompus Euros rules - one of which we as a country dont agree with, then what do yo do?  Do we give in ?, do they give in ?  BOTH parties loose if the trade doesnt happen - its not like we gain everything so we should agree.

Sporky

Handsome_Chris said:

Are you suggesting we go for a best of three? It seems a bit weird if you win the vote one week and you're on a draw next week.

Not seriously. I'm not convinced referenda are a good idea in general, unless you do them a lot as I understand happens in Swizzlesticks. The three I can remember (alternative voting, Scotland and this'un) were all rather divisive - more so, I felt, than any general election.

But as I think I mentioned in another thread, the do-over approach to decision making isn't inherently bad - it helped me choose which university to go to, fer instance. Give it a go some time you can't decide between options - flip a coin or roll a die and see how you feel about the outcome. If you feel like you should give it another go then that's your brain telling you you don't like that option so much.

paulmapp8306 said:

Just feels that while Cameron says "we wont turnout backs on Europe" that its actually Europe turning their backs on us at the minute. 

Think about it from their point of view. A narrow majority of those who voted, and hence a minority overall, want to leave. If the EU gives significant concessions on that basis it'll result in other countries wanting their own special deals.

I actually support some reform of the EU (probably less than most but that's beside the point) but there needs to be some consistency about regulations; at the moment the EU probably feel they're being held to ransom.

paulmapp8306

Free movement of people though - id argue  is the main issue we have.  Its also the main issue most countries in the EU have.  Its also the main issues people of countries whos leaders WANT it have.  Its the EUs main issue at present by a mile.  Seems that the leaders are just sticking their fingers in their ears and going "La La La La La"

That said - I do get EU feel pissed, but their acting more like kids than we are..  What I dont get is why no "pre Article 50" discussion.  Surly that the best for all.  AS I say- there are plenty of countries around the world trading with the EU with no freedom of movement.  What is the cost of that?  what are the tariffs?  why is that not being talked about as an option?

I cant agree with this part of your comment though.

""A narrow majority of those who voted, and hence a minority overall, want to leave""

As we dont know the views of that % who didnt vote - you cant say either way if those wanting to leave are a minority or majhority.  Its possible (not likely of course) that ALL those who didnt vote wanted to leave making the majority larger.