Was I unreasonable?

rlw

I've had an LP up on reverb for a few weeks, price now reduced to, honestly, silly money.  I was away over Friday and Saturday and this morning I check my emails to discover that it has been "bought" by someone who has sent me the full price by PayPal - costing me some £40 in fees -  and is wondering when it can be delivered as he is really excited.

The price includes delivery to the UK (I didn't even know where the chap was based....) but I wasn't banking on losing the £40 in fees and paying another £40 quid for a courier.

While it's nice to sell something, I didn't actually receive an offer which I could accept/refuse/counter, nor did I have any communication before discovering I've got the chap's money in my PayPal account.

The LP is now marked up as being sold and reverb will doubtless want their fee but I have just refunded the confused buyer his money and am quite annoyed with him for putting me in this position.

Is it reasonable to expect to actually agree terms before doing a deal?  I think so but you may not agree.

TTony

Different sites / different processes I guess.

If you advertise something here, then you generally have a discussion to confirm that both buyer & seller are happy with all aspects of a deal.

If you advertise something on eBay, then the process is slightly different depending on how you define your sale terms - e.g. you could stipulate "cash on collection".  Although there are plenty of examples of people winning an auction (or pressing BiN) and then asking about couriers, PP payment, etc - but its then easier for you to cancel the bid (and the fees) because the buyer has tried to change the terms of the auction after the event.

Don't know how Reverb works because I've not used it ...

John_P

I might be missing something,  but if you got the full asking price then why not just complete the sale. 

leerocker

Not quite sure what to say really , you listed it and it sold for your asking price on reverb so whats the problem with the buyer. hes paid for it i take it you had a postage option on it or was it collection only?

stimpsonslostson

I'd contact Reverb to discuss the situation with them.
@iain.reverb seems a nice chap.  

benmurray85

Well what did you want to agree with the buyer? from reading your post it could only have been to settle out of reverb to avoid the fees but giving the buyer zero protection. Only other option I could see would have been for you to negotiate a higher selling price for you to cover fees! 

Either way, are you being unreasonable? Yes

You should've factored the fees in when you lowered your price. 

paul_c2

I'd say you're obliged to honour the sale. Did you not specify what the courier/delivery cost would be? Obviously if he has paid for the guitar but not delivery, you can additionally charge a reasonable fee for delivery (and packaging).

Paypal seller fees - you have no leg to stand on there.

WezV

Yeah, if it was listed with PayPal as an option then you should have been prepared for someone clicking the buy button and using one of the allowed payment methods

DefaultM

I've never used Reverb, but I assume it's like eBay where you set a buy it now price and then someone can immediately click to buy it and pay. 
You say that postage was included in the price, and you must have had PayPal as an option on there so why is it a surprise when someone has clicked to buy, has paid using one of the options and then contacts to discuss when it can be delivered?

blueskunk

It's a shame for the buyer. He or she followed the rules and paid up. 

Iv mis wrote adverts not accounting for PayPal fees and been stung but never reneged on a deal. 

Richardj

It sounds like poor form to me I'm afraid.  By using Reverb you have to agree to their terms and way of business. Paypal seller fees are part of that and actually one of the reasons I haven't sold anything on there as yet.

I'd be quite rightly p*ssed off if I had paid asking price for something and then have the seller back out because the sale didn't suit them.

Sorry.

rlw

benmurray85 said:

Well what did you want to agree with the buyer? from reading your post it could only have been to settle out of reverb to avoid the fees but giving the buyer zero protection. Only other option I could see would have been for you to negotiate a higher selling price for you to cover fees! 

Either way, are you being unreasonable? Yes

You should've factored the fees in when you lowered your price. 

All the paypal transactions I've done here have been as PP gifts so the seller got the full asking price, and thats what I was expecting.  No intention of settling outside reverb, just as I didn't when offered cash on my 65 PRRI.

If PP gift isn't an option then I won't do it any further.

FelineGuitars

You may have been over optimistic from the sound of it (and that can happen to most of us)

My take on it is

1) that you listed it at a certain price and Paypal is the given currency on Reverb - so you know you are paying a Paypal fee (which in principle is not much different to a shop getting charged for a credit card transaction) and as has been said it will be normal Paypal and not PPG which is abusing the Paypal system anyway if you use it with someone you don't know.

2) You also normally list shipping charges which would mean that they buyer pays those, or if you did free post in UK you would have already realised that you were swallowing those. Obviously it's great if someone local buys it because you can drop it off at very little cost but the UK is big enough that that wont always be possible.

3) Reverb fees...hardly something you weren't expecting as it's a commercial site, but still way better than you would have on eBay.

4) Reverb is very much a shop site (one that works pretty well to be fair).
It's much more a list something at the price you want, allow people to make offers if that suits you
Accept the sale and the already known about fees and Paypal costs when you make a sale.

I don't know how you'd be feeling if the boot was on the other foot ...if you had seen something you liked, payed the asking price and were very much looking forward to receiving the item and then the seller had second thoughts (not because they wanted to keep the item after all but because they really wanted more money) and cancelled the sale.

Richardj

Paypal gift doesn't offer the buyer any protection, I cannot see any organised sales site rolling with that.

rlw

paul_c2 said:

I'd say you're obliged to honour the sale. Did you not specify what the courier/delivery cost would be? Obviously if he has paid for the guitar but not delivery, you can additionally charge a reasonable fee for delivery (and packaging).

Paypal seller fees - you have no leg to stand on there.

Price was including delivery but not paypal fees as far as I was concerned.  Maybe I was being stupid but have learned for the future.

My main gripe is that I had no chance to discuss with the buyer who could have been a complete nut/troublemaker/delete as applicable, and best avoided.

Richardj

But that is why Reverb act as the intermediary to oversee the transaction and hopefully look after both parties if there is a problem.

It is after all pretty much a more civilised version of ebay for musos.

rlw

FelineGuitars said:

You may have been over optimistic from the sound of it (and that can happen to most of us)

My take on it is

1) that you listed it at a certain price and Paypal is the given currency on Reverb - so you know you are paying a Paypal fee (which in principle is not much different to a shop getting charged for a credit card transaction)

2) You also normally list shipping charges which would mean that they buyer pays those, or if you did free post in UK you would have already realised that you were swallowing those. Obviously it's great if someone local buys it because you can drop it off at very little cost but the UK is big enough that that wont always be possible.

3) Reverb fees...hardly something you weren't expecting as it's a commercial site, but still way better than you would have on eBay.

4) Reverb is very much a shop site (one that works pretty well to be fair).
It's much more a list something at the price you want, allow people to make offers if that suits you
Accept the sale and the already known about fees and Paypal costs when you make a sale.

I don't know how you'd be feeling if the boot was on the other foot ...if you had seen something you liked, payed the asking price and were very much looking forward to receiving the item and then the seller had second thoughts (not because they wanted to keep the item after all but because they really wanted more money) and cancelled the sale.

I agree with all of this but never having dealt with Paypal except as to another individual, I imagined that that the fee could be avoided, as I have said.

I really wasn't after more money, just the asking price which, now I understand it better, would never have materialised anyway.

Iamnobody

rlw said:

paul_c2 said:

I'd say you're obliged to honour the sale. Did you not specify what the courier/delivery cost would be? Obviously if he has paid for the guitar but not delivery, you can additionally charge a reasonable fee for delivery (and packaging).

Paypal seller fees - you have no leg to stand on there.

Price was including delivery but not paypal fees as far as I was concerned.  Maybe I was being stupid but have learned for the future.

My main gripe is that I had no chance to discuss with the buyer who could have been a complete nut/troublemaker/delete as applicable, and best avoided.

Talk about wet behind the ears - you're still in the womb...

You lists it on a commercial sale site and it sold - did you want the buyers life story or something and to personally vet him? Then offering a completely unprotected means of payment.

Yoh have nowt to moan about but the buyer does....

rlw

Richardj said:

But that is why Reverb act as the intermediary to oversee the transaction and hopefully look after both parties if there is a problem.

It is after all pretty much a more civilised version of ebay for musos.

Agreed and lesson learned.  Maybe I am just too straight and too trusting of others :-)

benmurray85

rlw said:

Richardj said:

But that is why Reverb act as the intermediary to oversee the transaction and hopefully look after both parties if there is a problem.

It is after all pretty much a more civilised version of ebay for musos.

Agreed and lesson learned.  Maybe I am just too straight and too trusting of others :-)

You weren't straight enough to keep to a done deal that had been bought and paid for. 

rlw

Iamnobody said:

rlw said:

paul_c2 said:

I'd say you're obliged to honour the sale. Did you not specify what the courier/delivery cost would be? Obviously if he has paid for the guitar but not delivery, you can additionally charge a reasonable fee for delivery (and packaging).

Paypal seller fees - you have no leg to stand on there.

Price was including delivery but not paypal fees as far as I was concerned.  Maybe I was being stupid but have learned for the future.

My main gripe is that I had no chance to discuss with the buyer who could have been a complete nut/troublemaker/delete as applicable, and best avoided.

Talk about wet behind the ears - you're still in the womb...

You lists it on a commercial sale site and it sold - did you want the buyers life story or something and to personally vet him? Then offering a completely unprotected means of payment.

Yoh have nowt to moan about but the buyer does....

To be fair to me, before I even knew I had money in my Paypal account, I did have an email saying that he had made a big mistake and didn't want to go ahead after all and could I organize a refund and I could keep a tenner for my trouble.

Followed by one saying that if the guitar was crap he could always sell it on and to go ahead.

Followed by one saying that it was really love at first sight and he really wanted it.

So, maybe, you can see why I was pissed off with him and, yes, a few words to ascertain that he wasn't a total PITA might have been nice.  No-one actually has to sell anyone anything if they don't want to for wahetevr reason. (Provided they're not discriminating...)