The New Breed of Guitar Dealers - Do They Really Think Guitar Buyers Are That Stupid?

Evilmags

ICBM said:

https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/manuscripts/capital.htm

Short form: "all profit is theft" - Karl Marx

The dumbest amd least rational statement in history. Without profit no farmer would farm, no baker would bake and no builder would build. 

ICBM

Evilmags said:

ICBM said:

https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/manuscripts/capital.htm

Short form: "all profit is theft" - Karl Marx

The dumbest amd least rational statement in history. Without profit no farmer would farm, no baker would bake and no builder would build. 

Marx understood that perfectly well, as you know. But it is nonetheless true, even though the short form is not quite what he said.

CloudNine

musicman100 said:

Imo gas isn't buying n selling ( that to some degree is dealing ). 

Gas is when ur accumulating lots of gear but not really a collector n never really get rid of anything.

Disagree. GAS is just the desire for the next aquisition. Whether that be by selling one to fund the next one, or whatever. It's the desire for the new, grass is greener etc. It's nothing to do with accumulating gear. If you own 1 guitar, but are changing it every few weeks, you are probably suffering from GAS issues.

SteveRobinson

I can recall one case where a member (a good friend of mine and the nicest chap anyone could wish to meet) was selling a Strat. He was beaten down on price by the buyer who pleaded poverty. My friend even paid for the shipping, only for the buyer to list it on eBay a few days later at about three times what he'd paid. 

That to me was blatantly taking advantage of a member's good nature and not just "flipping".

IvisonGuitars

CloudNine said:

musicman100 said:

Imo gas isn't buying n selling ( that to some degree is dealing ). 

Gas is when ur accumulating lots of gear but not really a collector n never really get rid of anything.

Disagree. GAS is just the desire for the next aquisition. Whether that be by selling one to fund the next one, or whatever. It's the desire for the new, grass is greener etc. It's nothing to do with accumulating gear. If you own 1 guitar, but are changing it every few weeks, you are probably suffering from GAS issues.

This.

guitars4you

ICBM said:

Evilmags said:

ICBM said:

https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/manuscripts/capital.htm

Short form: "all profit is theft" - Karl Marx

The dumbest amd least rational statement in history. Without profit no farmer would farm, no baker would bake and no builder would build. 

Marx understood that perfectly well, as you know. But it is nonetheless true, even though the short form is not quite what he said.

I believe he was applying it more to our fractional reserve banking system were compound interest loads nations with debt that can never be paid - and we as a nation have to borrow from privately owned central banks

impmann

Evilmags said:

ICBM said:

https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/manuscripts/capital.htm

Short form: "all profit is theft" - Karl Marx

The dumbest amd least rational statement in history. Without profit no farmer would farm, no baker would bake and no builder would build.

Well, that quote is "property is theft" and although it is attibuted to Marx it was coined in Pierre-Joseph Proudhon's book "What is Property?" in 1840, four years before this manuscript was published.

Marx certainly wasn't "dumb". And maybe this is a discussion for somewhere else - but his, admittedly, utopian view was that if people stopped working for their own personal gain and started working for the gain of the greater society, everybody stood to gain rather than the few.

If you remove personal gain then the concept of money and indeed, profit, become an irrelevance. If everybody is provided with everything that they need to thrive then it becomes a beautiful world without the grubbing around for money.

However, Marx was an academic - and didn't factor in the most basic of human frailties... greed. As a result, whilst Das Capital and the Communist Manifesto are amazing ideas set in a utopian world, when you try to apply his philosophy to the real world it doesn't work. As everyone is very keen to point out whenever you mention communism, the old USSR wasn't a happy place and often these regimes are enforced using oppression. However, Marx (and Engles) ideals weren't based on that - it was meant to be a utopian world where nobody went hungry, everybody had what they needed, everyone was equal and they all worked for the common good. That final phrase is the bit that just doesn't seem to sit with folks...

Anyway - enough about Karl Marx, as we've proved he has bog all to do with greedy bedroom guitar dealers.

As you were. :-)

usedtobe

impmann said:

There are several guys I can think of who by rights should be completing tax returns right now but I guarantee won't be.

Personally, unlike everyone else, I *do* have a problem with opportunist profiteering - especially when conducted by those who seek to screw you down to the lowest price all the time when you are selling.

But hey, I'm used to being a lone voice.

You're not alone!

ICBM

guitars4you said:

ICBM said:

Evilmags said:

ICBM said:

https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/manuscripts/capital.htm

Short form: "all profit is theft" - Karl Marx

The dumbest amd least rational statement in history. Without profit no farmer would farm, no baker would bake and no builder would build. 

Marx understood that perfectly well, as you know. But it is nonetheless true, even though the short form is not quite what he said.

I believe he was applying it more to our fractional reserve banking system were compound interest loads nations with debt that can never be paid - and we as a nation have to borrow from privately owned central banks

What he meant is that whenever someone makes a profit, it has to be at the expense of someone else being paid too little. Which is true - you can't create wealth out of thin air. (Although that's where your modern bankers should be paying attention...) He also knew very well that capital is necessary to invest in industry to create the wealth - it's a trade-off, a bit like how no engine can ever be 100% efficient, but the waste is necessary if the engine is going to do something useful.

I knew that quoting Marx in any form would wind up Mags though, it always does .

Cyberlawyer

Having had this happen to me a while ago (dealer purchased my PRS on here which then appeard for sale on Facebook). I can honestly say I have no problem with people buying to sell at a higher price, that is the nature of capitalism (which I agree has its flaws, but it's the best system we currently have).

The bit that really pisses me off is the dishonesty. If a guy comes up to me and says 'Hi I want to buy your guitar here is the cash' then once the transaction is done it's none of my business what he does with it and if he can sell it at a profit good for him. (I think this was the concensus of opinion on the recent Guitars4you thread).

However often these type of transactions are plagued with dishonesty such as:

1. pretending to be a normal enthusiastic buyer to build up a relationship and get a deal.
2. Saying things like 'can I have it at a discount as I can only afford X' (unlikely if it's a business venture unless it's a very poor one).
3. Potentially threatening lies like 'it's only worth X' (where x is about 50% of its true worth).
4. Failing to pay the appropriate tax and other business expenses on what is clearly a business.

Personally it's the dishonesty that grates far more than the fact someone made a few quid selling a Guitar I used to own.

BRISTOL86

Cyberlawyer said:

Having had this happen to me a while ago (dealer purchased my PRS on here which then appeard for sale on Facebook). I can honestly say I have no problem with people buying to sell at a higher price, that is the nature of capitalism (which I agree has its flaws, but it's the best system we currently have).

The bit that really pisses me off is the dishonesty. If a guy comes up to me and says 'Hi I want to buy your guitar here is the cash' then once the transaction is done it's none of my business what he does with it and if he can sell it at a profit good for him. (I think this was the concensus of opinion on the recent Guitars4you thread).

However often these type of transactions are plagued with dishonesty such as:

1. pretending to be a normal enthusiastic buyer to build up a relationship and get a deal.
2. Saying things like 'can I have it at a discount as I can only afford X' (unlikely if it's a business venture unless it's a very poor one).
3. Potentially threatening lies like 'it's only worth X' (where x is about 50% of its true worth).
4. Failing to pay the appropriate tax and other business expenses on what is clearly a business.

Personally it's the dishonesty that grates far more than the fact someone made a few quid selling a Guitar I used to own.

Spot on! 

absolutpepper

I've occasionally thought about picking up some real bargains i've seen solely with the intention of flipping them...however i've always found a nagging moral in the corner of my brain that stopped me.  That and generally i'd end up keeping things, never selling them and be bankrupt in no time ;-)

musicman100

CloudNine said:

musicman100 said:

Imo gas isn't buying n selling ( that to some degree is dealing ). 

Gas is when ur accumulating lots of gear but not really a collector n never really get rid of anything.

Disagree. GAS is just the desire for the next aquisition. Whether that be by selling one to fund the next one, or whatever. It's the desire for the new, grass is greener etc. It's nothing to do with accumulating gear. If you own 1 guitar, but are changing it every few weeks, you are probably suffering from GAS issues.

you disagree that's fine with me. it's only my opinion. 

Modellista

Cyberlawyer said:

Having had this happen to me a while ago (dealer purchased my PRS on here which then appeard for sale on Facebook). I can honestly say I have no problem with people buying to sell at a higher price, that is the nature of capitalism (which I agree has its flaws, but it's the best system we currently have).

The bit that really pisses me off is the dishonesty. If a guy comes up to me and says 'Hi I want to buy your guitar here is the cash' then once the transaction is done it's none of my business what he does with it and if he can sell it at a profit good for him. (I think this was the concensus of opinion on the recent Guitars4you thread).

However often these type of transactions are plagued with dishonesty such as:

1. pretending to be a normal enthusiastic buyer to build up a relationship and get a deal.
2. Saying things like 'can I have it at a discount as I can only afford X' (unlikely if it's a business venture unless it's a very poor one).
3. Potentially threatening lies like 'it's only worth X' (where x is about 50% of its true worth).
4. Failing to pay the appropriate tax and other business expenses on what is clearly a business.

Personally it's the dishonesty that grates far more than the fact someone made a few quid selling a Guitar I used to own.

This, this, and thrice this.

Twice that has happened to me, I've been told a pack of lies during the deal, to knock off maybe ten quid from the asking price.  This was before I'd got to know the "usual suspects" in the local area.  The ones with the same load of overpriced crap on Gumtree and Facebook that they must be holding on to for months, if not years.

I guess there must be *some* money in it, but it seems a big effort for potentially negligible reward.  You could always do a day's overtime at work and make the sort of profit that these guys must take months to claw back.

In my experience these guys are generally not good guitar players, just bedroom noodlers.  In fact they probably don't like guitars much at all, treating them as tradeable commodities which could just as easily be any other type of good.  I have much more respect for people who buy and sell at a fair price instead of gouging the market, and will make a purchase with the primary aim of obtaining a good guitar to play, rather than solely to flip.

Strat54

Here's Rolly's Guitars. They sell under  a private ebay account thus avoiding the fees that ebay would charge for a 'shop' and also avoiding not having to accept returns etc. Nice one.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2011-PRS-Custom-24-Experience-Limited-Edition-Artist-Grade-Top-DEMO-VIDEO-/282264846534?hash=item41b84bc0c6:g:socAAOSwImRYNEty

http://www.rollysguitars.co.uk/category/electric-guitars/paul-reed-smith-prs/

Whitecat

Strat54 said:

Here's Rolly's Guitars. They sell under  a private ebay account thus avoiding the fees that ebay would charge for a 'shop' and also avoiding not having to accept returns etc. Nice one.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2011-PRS-Custom-24-Experience-Limited-Edition-Artist-Grade-Top-DEMO-VIDEO-/282264846534?hash=item41b84bc0c6:g:socAAOSwImRYNEty

http://www.rollysguitars.co.uk/category/electric-guitars/paul-reed-smith-prs/

https://www.gov.uk/report-an-unregistered-trader-or-business

BRISTOL86

Whitecat said:

Strat54 said:

Here's Rolly's Guitars. They sell under  a private ebay account thus avoiding the fees that ebay would charge for a 'shop' and also avoiding not having to accept returns etc. Nice one.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2011-PRS-Custom-24-Experience-Limited-Edition-Artist-Grade-Top-DEMO-VIDEO-/282264846534?hash=item41b84bc0c6:g:socAAOSwImRYNEty

http://www.rollysguitars.co.uk/category/electric-guitars/paul-reed-smith-prs/

https://www.gov.uk/report-an-unregistered-trader-or-business

I would urge care here, do you know for a fact that he is an unregistered trader?

Telling porkies about your status to eBay and failing to register a business to HMRC are not the same thing!

Strat54

I didn't say he was an unregistered trader. I merely stated he's violating ebays policy by using his personal account to trade. I would like to think he is registered...somewhere.

AvalonAndy

*

iain.reverb

What are the tax rules on private selling ? Is it based on a turnover figure per year ?