The New Breed of Guitar Dealers - Do They Really Think Guitar Buyers Are That Stupid?

sixstringsupplies

 Yep - dishonest sellers are pushing prices up on eBay all the time, but I'd argue its down to eBay themselves as well as their selling fees have also shot up considerably in the past 2 years (I'm talking business accounts) I've actually dropped some of our products from eBay as after the monthly shop fee, the 9% final value fee, the paypal fee (which is as much as 11% on low value items) postage and packaging, its not worth it! I'd rather keep the stock available for website orders. I don't really have an issue with people flipping on guitars to make a profit (I don't do it by the way) That's the essence of business and/or opportunism: buy cheap, sell high. Enthusiasts and collectors will see right through it though and as mentioned in the comments above, this forum is a great place to get a 2nd opinion and advice.

I'm sure most people on TF trawl eBay guitar listings and you will always come across an absolute gem with shocking photos, the guitar lying on a bedsheet or kitchen floor and just one line describing it. Its possible to sell it for more. A dealer will snap it up, clean it, take better photos and actually offer a product description that describes the guitar. Easier said than done as many previous comments have already stated that guitars still sit there unsold several weeks later, I'm just trying to explain the thinking behind it. You have to remember that business sellers do it full time and are trying to make a living and turn a profit. Private accounts are trying (generally speaking) to raise some quick cash to either fund some new gear or pay bills.

*edit*
a) I'm not a bedroom dealer - legitimate business which has to file accounts in the next 4 weeks...
b) I don't sell guitars.

sixstringsupplies

^^and I have no idea why my comment is in a blue box!

BRISTOL86

sixstringsupplies said:

^^and I have no idea why my comment is in a blue box!

I think it's a new forum update feature which automatically highlights dodgy bedroom guitar dealers  

Sambostar

I'm glad I bought what I needed for the flat when I did as it's the same with furniture.  Got some lovely 20's and 30's stuff. The last 6 years it's all white van man, house clearances and local 'Steamfair' auction houses, which have all appeared from nowhere and nothing is about any more.  People aren't doing anyone any favours by dealing with a premium.  I mean, I work in the service industry, landscaping and gardening and know it's not creating any GDP, if anything it's paying to the EU for imported plant stock from importer nurseries that aren't doing anything for GDP, as the growers have mainly shut down.  It pains me to see that everyone is one the make, it's just like the USA now, but I suppose it keeps cash recirculating and people off the dole statistics, as does University.  The amount of theft and 'Gardeners' charging £300 for a two hour amateur mess are also going through the roof.  I feel sorry for the established house clearance businesses and musical instrument traders, they aren't doing anyone any favours and much of it must go under the taxman's radar and I'd swear the ridiculous ones are money laundering outfits.  Still at least we have an increase in Insurance Premium Tax so the poorer can pay a little more.

We are rapidly returning to the dark ages.

Jack_

Surprised how many are getting annoyed by the tax angle, when these bedroom traders are barely a spec of insignificance in the grand scheme of all the tax avoided by the huge corporations in this country.

But Amazon sell cheap Gibson's, so it's cool jah.

impmann

Jack_ said:

Surprised how many are getting annoyed by the tax angle, when these bedroom traders are barely a spec of insignificance in the grand scheme of all the tax avoided by the huge corporations in this country.

But Amazon sell cheap Gibson's, so it's cool jah.

Every little helps, as the saying goes... ;-)

Jack_

impmann said:

Jack_ said:

Surprised how many are getting annoyed by the tax angle, when these bedroom traders are barely a spec of insignificance in the grand scheme of all the tax avoided by the huge corporations in this country.

But Amazon sell cheap Gibson's, so it's cool jah.

Every little helps, as the saying goes... ;-)

Those corporates have even impregnated your mind with their catchphrases.

thebreeze

Strat54 said:

Sassafras said:

My problem with these guys is that they're artificially inflating the prices of used gear enough to skew people's views on pricing.

Yes, agreed.

This is a very interesting thread.  I completely agree about the benefits of this being a community and also about the importance of honesty.

The issue of "people's view on pricing" is an interesting one however.  I think a number of these "bedroom dealers" are taking the position - you're selling your gear too cheap (I've even seen one of them write this in a thread).  It may be that they get stuck with lots of gear but I suspect they make enough sales to make it worthwhile.  

I think they're rationalising that 30-50% depreciation on what are often vgc or virtually new pieces of gear is more of an accepted convention than a "true" indication of something's worth.  I understand depreciation on cars for example but I find it much harder to fathom with guitars - especially since the relic'ing thing has come in.  

Say I buy a CS shop Strat today for £2,800.  Why is it worth £1,800 a day later?  In reality nothing can go wrong with a guitar that can't easily be put right (neck breaks etc. are a different thing).  In "reality" it's a very nice guitar and should really be about the same value even three or four years down the line until you start to get real wear and tear - frets etc.

Not really sure what I think, just some thoughts.

Sassafras

Sambostar said:

We are rapidly returning to the dark ages.

And I for one can't wait.
How I miss those dark ages.
Don't get me started on the bloody 21st century!

Sassafras

Jack_ said:

Surprised how many are getting annoyed by the tax angle, when these bedroom traders are barely a spec of insignificance in the grand scheme of all the tax avoided by the huge corporations in this country.

But Amazon sell cheap Gibson's, so it's cool jah.

I'm also surprised at the outrage over the tax issue. As you say, it pales into insignificance compared to the corporate masters of tax avoidance.
The big boys are awarded knighthoods and invitations to No 10.
Having said that, I wonder how many of these bedroom traders are still signing on?

Plukky

thebreeze said:

Say I buy a CS shop Strat today for £2,800.  Why is it worth £1,800 a day later?  In reality nothing can go wrong with a guitar that can't easily be put right (neck breaks etc. are a different thing).  In "reality" it's a very nice guitar and should really be about the same value even three or four years down the line until you start to get real wear and tear - frets etc.

Not really sure what I think, just some thoughts.

VAT for one reason: Your 2800 quid includes 560 quid that goes to HMRC.  The vendor gets 2240.
Then factor in that the vendor has legal obligations in the event that something does go wrong (however unlikely).  This probability/cost has to be paid for across all his stock.
Then factor in overheads inc wages etc.

Suddenly, 1800 pounds, once those expenses are removed, could seem high! 

thebreeze

Plukky said:

thebreeze said:

Say I buy a CS shop Strat today for £2,800.  Why is it worth £1,800 a day later?  In reality nothing can go wrong with a guitar that can't easily be put right (neck breaks etc. are a different thing).  In "reality" it's a very nice guitar and should really be about the same value even three or four years down the line until you start to get real wear and tear - frets etc.

Not really sure what I think, just some thoughts.

VAT for one reason: Your 2800 quid includes 560 quid that goes to HMRC.  The vendor gets 2240.
Then factor in that the vendor has legal obligations in the event that something does go wrong (however unlikely).  This probability/cost has to be paid for across all his stock.
Then factor in overheads inc wages etc.

Suddenly, 1800 pounds, once those expenses are removed, could seem high! 

Yes, I see that.  

But a 'bedroom seller" is saying I'll sell it for £2,200 (maybe more now that prices have gone up so much on new).  A buyer is then left wondering if spending the £600 extra in a shop is worth it for what is essentially the same guitar?

sawyer

It's the lies ,sob stories and claims of poverty that's the grievance here I think.

Blueingreen

Jack_ said:

Surprised how many are getting annoyed by the tax angle, when these bedroom traders are barely a spec of insignificance in the grand scheme of all the tax avoided by the huge corporations in this country.

But Amazon sell cheap Gibson's, so it's cool jah.

I wouldn't conflate large businesses avoiding tax legally (and often with the deliberate connivance of politicians) with people avoiding tax illegally, although I dislike both.

But it's really about trust.  If I'm buying a guitar over distance I want a seller who's honest, and a guy who's illegally dodging tax hardly inspires confidence.  I also notice these chancers almost invariably say they don't accept returns, which if they are traders (and usually they clearly are) is illegal.  So "no returns" is code for "you are of course entitled to certain protections under the law, but I will try to deny you those by lying about my status.  Please buy from me all the same".  Er, no thanks.

Neil

Blaendulais said:

Several watch forums wont let members sell or buy until they reach a certain number of 'frets'?

It's true and a very good idea.

It stops people just joining up purely to use the sales forum.

Norwegian_Blue

Neil said:

Blaendulais said:

Several watch forums wont let members sell or buy until they reach a certain number of 'frets'?

It's true and a very good idea.

It stops people just joining up purely to use the sales forum.

The only issue being I'd imagine that plenty of now very active members found the forum thanks to the classifieds? I know I did!

Dave_Mc

^ Before you posted I'd have tended to sympathise with @Neil 's post but that's a good point about people maybe signing up for the classifieds and then becoming active forum members.

Not sure what the answer is. You want to discourage the people who are solely signing up for the classifieds (especially if they're chancers), but you want to encourage people to sign up if they're going to post on the forum too...

Neil

Dave_Mc said:

^ Before you posted I'd have tended to sympathise with @Neil 's post but that's a good point about people maybe signing up for the classifieds and then becoming active forum members.

Not sure what the answer is. You want to discourage the people who are solely signing up for the classifieds (especially if they're chancers), but you want to encourage people to sign up if they're going to post on the forum too...

Well perhaps people would wander in attracted by the classifieds, see the requisite frets required and then hang around and start posting to build up their profile, like the place and become contributing members.

I know they have similar restrictions on the offset forum.

armitaan

firepaulmusic said:

A Tom Anderson Strat was bought from this forum for £1200. It was rephotographed and listed on EBay for £1690 - it's still there months later.....

Same here sold a honeyburst TA tele here about 9 months ago still see it regularly popping up on eBay /gumtree......

SimpleSimon

I dont get these ebsy listers who pretend to be a guitar store selling somthing from 2001 and then pretend/advertise it as new old stock or mint. 

heres an example:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NOS-STUNNING-2001-Paul-Reed-Smith-PRS-McCARTY-LEMON-HONEYBURST-MOONS-Candy-/182365134722?hash=item2a75cf1f82:g:ARwAAOSwcLxYE12B