UK Government to confirm exit from EU single market in speech on Tuesday

quarky

The chance to be the main opposition just seems there for the taking for a party which can occupy the centre, so can appeal to the dissatisfied on the traditional left and right, but can also pick up that "remain" vote. It speaks volumes that the Libdems can't do that. And you could just say that these two by-elections were not great choices for the LibDems anyway, but looking at recent polls, they are still *miles* behind Labour!?!

From that point of view, as bad as things are for Labour, how bad must they be for the LibDems? At least Labour could possibly turn things around electorally by getting rid of Corbyn and becoming a remain party. Yes it is incredibly divisive within Labour but the current approach clearly isn't working. The LibDems though, I am not sure what else they can do.

Fretwired

The problem is the old left/right divide has gone. Politics has changed - parties need to adapt, especially the Labour Party which many see is no longer relevant.

Heartfeltdawn

Bidley said:

The division of the left doesn't stop at remain voters; plenty voted leave too. It's not about right vs left any more, which is especially tough, given the polarising nature of politics these days.

The difference between them at present is that the right tend to gather around for the greater good better than the left do. You saw the opposite in Blair's time. New Labour didn't throw up some platform that everyone on the left agreed with. Unions especially were no friends of Blair but he threw enough out there for those who dissented in the party to rally round. That came after the Conservatives were quite the opposite with their European divisions causing problems for the party for years.

Sambostar

The British invented racism

White people love playing divide and rule.  We should not play their game.

Blonde, blue eyed nurses are unsuitable as nurses because they have never met a black person before.


Dubious of black people claiming they’ve never experienced racism. Ever tried hailing a taxi I always wonder?



Diane Abbott today revealed a torrent of vile racist and misogynist abuse she receives.

Evilmags

Labour lost a seat it has held since the 30s. That is really well beyond the possibilities of spin to make look anything other than a disaster. Without UKIP they would have lost Stoke as well. (And UKIP without Farage are like Megadeath without Mustain). 100 seat Tory majority next election. Largely thanks to Jeremy Corbyn....

ToneControl

Evilmags said:

Labour lost a seat it has held since the 30s. That is really well beyond the possibilities of spin to make look anything other than a disaster. Without UKIP they would have lost Stoke as well. (And UKIP without Farage are like Megadeath without Mustain). 100 seat Tory majority next election. Largely thanks to Jeremy Corbyn....

perhaps a fresh generation of idealists need to learn to be pragmatic

vale

with the eu referendum votes in, xenophobic bigots & miserable little englanders return from their protest flirtation with ukip to their spiritual home in the nasty party.
that the tory party is more like ukip than the labour party is not a news story.

& now the eu ref has run why settle for supporting a party with a few aimless amateur cunts like farage, when you can return to the tories & have a whole cabinet full of them, running the nhs into the ground & cutting care & disability benefits to crisis levels, selling off state assets & indebting future generations to underwrite tax favours to the wealthy & corporations of today.
ukip had no mps & could only talk evil, the tories can really do it 24/7 for years ahead.

ukip people are sleazy hard-right & extreme-right people attracted to sleazy hard-right & extreme-right people, so the tory party always wins in a game of by election musical chairs.
corbyn's anti nuke principles always a dead cert to keep trad lab voters at home in a nuke town like copeland.
& stoke result must be a relief for nuttall, who can now retrun to his previous career of writing blog fiction between premier league matches.

this story interesting tho.
recent hailed 'growth' blip turns out to be an unsustainable credit blip under closer scrutiny.
http://uk.businessinsider.com/brexit-uk-gdp-cliff-2017-2?r=US&IR=T

Sambostar

@vale, I've always supported UKIP, even before they apparently became 'The Popular People's Racist Front' party.  Anyway, on a side note.

Favourite Story:



Favourite comment:

'Oh I can just see it now, they (Referring to Snowflake Numbskulls) will say ' Not wanting immigration is racist... but they are black so can't be racist and am I racist for thinking that they could be racist and questioning the decision of someone who is black but they don't want immigration which is racist...' at this point their eyes will glaze over and they will just sit there dumbfounded, staring into space drooling'.

vale

@Sambostar i like your posts here sambostar, so not intending to run you down personally when i attack ukip & their support. i just feel that whatever you really stand for as a political person (behind the smoke & mirrors & provocation & game playing, which is often amusing), it surely must exist in a less toxic & more credible form, in either of the two main parties, than anything the cynical xenophobic populist political car-crash of ukip has to offer.
if you are a tory that is fine. so is my mum & i still get on with her. but the whole ukip ideology just strikes me as nasty-spirited & morally-rotten & frankly beneath you, from what i know of you from your posts here.
but, ultimately, to every man (& woman) their vices & their sport. do what you've got to do.

Sambostar

UKIP were always about fighting the EU and EU Directives implemented by government and were about small British businesses way before they were about immigration, they're just tories and tories are tory-liberals.  I don't like the racist or the corrupt elements of them but every party has some, UKIP just get the wrap.  I don't really support anyone to be honest but UKIP have always gotten the blame, where labour and the Tories and all their cronies have done/said far worse but get off scot free.  Considering that they came from nowhere and given their funding you have to at least acknowledge them.  As for the labour party, they are a shambles and Corbyn is an idiot.  Personally I'm pissed off that the Tories are going to put up business rates, they supposed to be tories FFS, they hardly act like them.  Party affiliation is basically redundant these days.  I believe in a social welfare safety net, but I don't believe you should be taxed punitively just because you have made a success of your life, so no, I'm not a labour supporter.  By the way, I haven't made a success of mine.

marantz1300

"UKIP were always about fighting the EU and EU Directives implemented by government and were about small British businesses way before they were about immigration, they're just tories and tories are tory-liberals.  I don't like the racist or the corrupt elements of them but every party has some, UKIP just get the wrap.  I don't really support anyone to be honest but UKIP have always gotten the blame, where labour and the Tories and all their cronies have done/said far worse but get off scot free.  Considering that they came from nowhere and given their funding you have to at least acknowledge them.  As for the labour party, they are a shambles and Corbyn is an idiot.  Personally I'm pissed off that the Tories are going to put up business rates, they supposed to be tories FFS, they hardly act like them.  Party affiliation is basically redundant these days. "

So it seems are morals, ethics and care for humans less  well off or in need.

All that matters is profit.

Sambostar

marantz1300 said:

So it seems are morals, ethics and care for humans less  well off or in need.

All that matters is profit.

Unfortunately this is baseline human nature and in essence it is nature.  You can't help everyone and often the ones that shout loudest cause the most problems (Hillary, Blair etc.)

marantz1300

Sambostar said:

marantz1300 said:

So it seems are morals, ethics and care for humans less  well off or in need.

All that matters is profit.

Unfortunately this is baseline human nature and in essence it is nature.  You can't help everyone and often the ones that shout loudest cause the most problems (Hillary, Blair etc.)

Trump, Thatcher, Hitler.

I know, but we all are able to make choices, some people's are just selfish and greedy.

I'm all right ,fuck everyone else

greed is good

are now prevalent .

Sambostar

Agreed.  But it seems it's still human nature, 6 men and a 5 man lifeboat and all that.  The only thing possibly stopping it is the psychology of society, which these days is more and more insular and fragmented.

When you vote for your local MP you don't choose them by political party, you get the person who you feel is best qualified for the job and will do the right thing.  Whatever your version of the right thing is.

quarky

marantz1300 said:

So it seems are morals, ethics and care for humans less  well off or in need.

All that matters is profit.

God damn companies creating jobs, developing technologies, enriching peoples lives, paying taxes, pushing people to do their best for themselves. Bloody bastards. Who the hell do they think they are, when we have seen how successful socialism was to humanity last century?

Fretwired

quarky said:

marantz1300 said:

So it seems are morals, ethics and care for humans less  well off or in need.

All that matters is profit.

God damn companies creating jobs, developing technologies, enriching peoples lives, paying taxes, pushing people to do their best for themselves. Bloody bastards. Who the hell do they think they are, when we have seen how successful socialism was to humanity last century?

What about those companies that exploit people - Amazon, Apple and co spring to mind and those that destroy the environment like Union Carbide and BP. We're at the point of having global corporations with more power than governments - to be honest the way the UK government sucks up to some of these firms is vomit educing.

quarky

Fretwired said:

quarky said:

marantz1300 said:

So it seems are morals, ethics and care for humans less  well off or in need.

All that matters is profit.

God damn companies creating jobs, developing technologies, enriching peoples lives, paying taxes, pushing people to do their best for themselves. Bloody bastards. Who the hell do they think they are, when we have seen how successful socialism was to humanity last century?

What about those companies that exploit people - Amazon, Apple and co spring to mind and those that destroy the environment like Union Carbide and BP. We're at the point of having global corporations with more power than governments - to be honest the way the UK government sucks up to some of these firms is vomit educing.

I think it is still 1,000,000 times better to be exploited by a company than a nation. At least companies like Amazon and Apple employee people who pay tax, even if the companies themselves don't seem to pay a huge amount. I am not a huge fan of either of those, but they innovate, they create. I do think there is a real need to pay tax on revenue in a country though, rather than profits from the country. The latter is too easy to exploit, but companies have an obligation to their owners/shareholders to maximize profit.

In terms of damage to the environment (and people), of course we need regulation to help with that. Would a government owned industry be any cleaner than one owned by private individuals though? Are/were there no health/environmental issues in China? Or the former USSR?

Heartfeltdawn

Evilmags said:

Labour lost a seat it has held since the 30s. That is really well beyond the possibilities of spin to make look anything other than a disaster. Without UKIP they would have lost Stoke as well. (And UKIP without Farage are like Megadeath without Mustain). 100 seat Tory majority next election. Largely thanks to Jeremy Corbyn....

Without UKIP being around, we'd still have Cameron and we probably wouldn't have had a referendum so I'd say it's stretching it to say that UKIP saved Labour in Stoke Central.

I don't think the loss is a disaster. That's the real fucking problem. After the Brown years, the failure of Miliband, the rise of Corbyn, the devastation in Scotland, and the continual lurking presence of Blair, one by-election loss is just another fucking slip up as part of a long continued series of fuckups. 

quarky said:

The chance to be the main opposition just seems there for the taking for a party which can occupy the centre, so can appeal to the dissatisfied on the traditional left and right, but can also pick up that "remain" vote. It speaks volumes that the Libdems can't do that. And you could just say that these two by-elections were not great choices for the LibDems anyway, but looking at recent polls, they are still *miles* behind Labour!?!

From that point of view, as bad as things are for Labour, how bad must they be for the LibDems? At least Labour could possibly turn things around electorally by getting rid of Corbyn and becoming a remain party. Yes it is incredibly divisive within Labour but the current approach clearly isn't working. The LibDems though, I am not sure what else they can do.

But is it? To become the main opposition, you need policies that actually oppose, party unity, some decent membership backing, and some serious financial backing. 

Labour have the membership, just about enough cash, but fuck all unity, fuck all leadership, and fuck all policy coherency.

The Libs don't have the membership, the money, the policies, the leadership, and I still can't pin one single dominating standpoint to Tim Farron beyond an ability to be completely invisible 98% of the time. 

Whilst we have the SNPLabLibGreenPlaid mess, you have five parties splitting the left vote whereas you have two parties really splitting the right (with respect paid to Ireland). Somebody has to fall on the sword at some point if an effective left-wing opposition is to ever emerge, let alone a left-wing government.  

ToneControl

on any scale of decency, the  Russians and China killed more people than any capitalist countries, by orders of magnitude:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chinese_Famine
"scholars have estimated the number of famine victims to be between 20 and 43 million"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties_of_the_Soviet_Union
"In 1993 a study by the Russian Academy of Sciences estimated total Soviet population losses due to the war at 26.6 million"
"Some critics in Russia put total losses in the war, both civilians and military, at over 40 million " 

To give that some perspective, total WW2  UK deaths  = 450,900

Anyway, back to the point.  companies can only cheat or play by the rules, if the rules are a joke, they will play them,  Currently,  variations in corporation tax and offshoring of profits  have not been resolved as an issue

ToneControl

Heartfeltdawn said:

Evilmags said:

Labour lost a seat it has held since the 30s. That is really well beyond the possibilities of spin to make look anything other than a disaster. Without UKIP they would have lost Stoke as well. (And UKIP without Farage are like Megadeath without Mustain). 100 seat Tory majority next election. Largely thanks to Jeremy Corbyn....

Without UKIP being around, we'd still have Cameron and we probably wouldn't have had a referendum so I'd say it's stretching it to say that UKIP saved Labour in Stoke Central.

I don't think the loss is a disaster. That's the real fucking problem. After the Brown years, the failure of Miliband, the rise of Corbyn, the devastation in Scotland, and the continual lurking presence of Blair, one by-election loss is just another fucking slip up as part of a long continued series of fuckups. 

quarky said:

The chance to be the main opposition just seems there for the taking for a party which can occupy the centre, so can appeal to the dissatisfied on the traditional left and right, but can also pick up that "remain" vote. It speaks volumes that the Libdems can't do that. And you could just say that these two by-elections were not great choices for the LibDems anyway, but looking at recent polls, they are still *miles* behind Labour!?!

From that point of view, as bad as things are for Labour, how bad must they be for the LibDems? At least Labour could possibly turn things around electorally by getting rid of Corbyn and becoming a remain party. Yes it is incredibly divisive within Labour but the current approach clearly isn't working. The LibDems though, I am not sure what else they can do.

But is it? To become the main opposition, you need policies that actually oppose, party unity, some decent membership backing, and some serious financial backing. 

Labour have the membership, just about enough cash, but fuck all unity, fuck all leadership, and fuck all policy coherency.

The Libs don't have the membership, the money, the policies, the leadership, and I still can't pin one single dominating standpoint to Tim Farron beyond an ability to be completely invisible 98% of the time. 

Whilst we have the SNPLabLibGreenPlaid mess, you have five parties splitting the left vote whereas you have two parties really splitting the right (with respect paid to Ireland). Somebody has to fall on the sword at some point if an effective left-wing opposition is to ever emerge, let alone a left-wing government.  

Agreed.

Personally, I suspect that, in the spirit of the old Clint Eastwood spaghetti western films, the labour party needs to have it's head properly kicked in before it can reevaluate its objectives and return with a coherent and attractive proposition. Does it need a full-on drubbing in 2020? The Libs have already suffered worse, anyone who thinks it can't happen are dreaming. On the left currently, too many are pulling in different directions, or are up their own arses. Corbyn is simply a symptom of that, and the blind faith he has attracted is lamentable, and worthy of derision 

Contrast that with the pragmatism of  the Tories  - even the  loose cannons are  not  much of a liability