UK Government to confirm exit from EU single market in speech on Tuesday

Nitefly

The question is, "Who does Labour represent?"

Their original constituency, the masses of working men, are no longer there.  Coal miners?  Railway-men? Steel-workers? Car-workers? Dockers?

All those blokes are now out in white vans, installing cabling, and flooring, and shop-fitting, and roofing, and so on.

Labour thus becomes representative of the "intellectual" left, the very people who keep voting for Corbyn as leader, but with no relevance to their grass-roots.

I don't know where they go from there.

Sambostar

Sambostar

@Nitefly I think I just docked in your hard drive man.

ToneControl

Sambostar said:

almost a flying V Balaika there

Heartfeltdawn

ToneControl said:  

Agreed.

Personally, I suspect that, in the spirit of the old Clint Eastwood spaghetti western films, the labour party needs to have it's head properly kicked in before it can reevaluate its objectives and return with a coherent and attractive proposition. Does it need a full-on drubbing in 2020? The Libs have already suffered worse, anyone who thinks it can't happen are dreaming. On the left currently, too many are pulling in different directions, or are up their own arses. Corbyn is simply a symptom of that, and the blind faith he has attracted is lamentable, and worthy of derision 

Contrast that with the pragmatism of  the Tories  - even the  loose cannons are  not  much of a liability

The loose cannons have got what they wanted. The end of the DC and Gobby Show. A referendum win. A promise to pull out of Europe. So for them, it's now time to sit back and shut up for a while. 

For Labour, the liabilities are on the frontbench. 

Heartfeltdawn

Nitefly said:

The question is, "Who does Labour represent?"

Their original constituency, the masses of working men, are no longer there.  Coal miners?  Railway-men? Steel-workers? Car-workers? Dockers?

All those blokes are now out in white vans, installing cabling, and flooring, and shop-fitting, and roofing, and so on.

Labour thus becomes representative of the "intellectual" left, the very people who keep voting for Corbyn as leader, but with no relevance to their grass-roots.

I don't know where they go from there.

How many Labour grassroots events have you attended? Corbyn hasn't got to where he is via a dominant intellectual left wing support, just as UKIP haven't achieved their success purely on the back of Sun reading white van man non-intellectual support. 

Large amounts of the intellectual left wing Labourites are not Corbyn backers. They don't believe his message. They see his pisspoor display during EuRef and his general failure to do anything meaningful as failure. His supporters feature a lot of people who are true grassroots people, people in service industry jobs, some of the old unionists who remember Thatcher, students who didn't come through public school and end up in fucking Russell Group universities. People who believe his message. 

What this so-called intellectual group hasn't done yet is pull away entirely from Labour. That's the group Blair was trying to connect with recently. That's the group that the Liberal Democrats have failed to entice over. 

The idea of Corbyn as the figurehead of the intellectual left can be easily dismissed with one phrase: look at his frontbench!

quarky

A look at the yougov polls would indicate that as popular as Corbyn appears to be with Labour Party members, he doesn't connect at all with the wider Labour voters. And that is the massive problem for the party. The wider Labour voting public don't want him, but the Labour membership currently do, and the demographics between the two would appear to be poles apart.

So either the Labour membership need to accept that their views are out of step with their previous voters, or another party needs to step into that left-Tory space that New Labour used to occupy to appeal to those voters. Labour would appeal so much more if they were anti-Brexit, but the Labour members don't want that. So to the vast majority of voters, Labour has very, very, very little to offer. Who on earth would vote for them currently?

Nitefly

Sambostar said:

@Nitefly I think I just docked in your hard drive man.

@Sambostar that's OK matey, you stay cool in there.  Just don't piss on anything, please.

Nitefly

Heartfeltdawn said:

Nitefly said:

The question is, "Who does Labour represent?"

Their original constituency, the masses of working men, are no longer there.  Coal miners?  Railway-men? Steel-workers? Car-workers? Dockers?

All those blokes are now out in white vans, installing cabling, and flooring, and shop-fitting, and roofing, and so on.

Labour thus becomes representative of the "intellectual" left, the very people who keep voting for Corbyn as leader, but with no relevance to their grass-roots.

I don't know where they go from there.

How many Labour grassroots events have you attended? Corbyn hasn't got to where he is via a dominant intellectual left wing support, just as UKIP haven't achieved their success purely on the back of Sun reading white van man non-intellectual support. 

Large amounts of the intellectual left wing Labourites are not Corbyn backers. They don't believe his message. They see his pisspoor display during EuRef and his general failure to do anything meaningful as failure. His supporters feature a lot of people who are true grassroots people, people in service industry jobs, some of the old unionists who remember Thatcher, students who didn't come through public school and end up in fucking Russell Group universities. People who believe his message. 

What this so-called intellectual group hasn't done yet is pull away entirely from Labour. That's the group Blair was trying to connect with recently. That's the group that the Liberal Democrats have failed to entice over. 

The idea of Corbyn as the figurehead of the intellectual left can be easily dismissed with one phrase: look at his frontbench!

@@Heartfeltdawn ;- thanks for that, lucidly explained as usual.

Like you, I wonder how the Lib Dems failed to hoover them up - it looked like a natural home for them.

Sambostar

Whilst chiseling away rusty bodywork in prep for welding today I was listening to some question time thing with what sounded like Dimbleby on BBC2 or something.

It was the usual life long labour supporters and the usual righteous save the world leftard political crew who can't see past their own noses.

 Yep, the usual gupgoffing at UKIP and labeling anyone who objects to unlimited immigration or spending on the UK at the expense of other countries are racists rants, the usual Trump is a misogynist, sexist, racist thug, the usual throwing the toys out of the pram every time real issues were presented, the usual denying of reality and the usual universal agreement at how great they all are by being so philanthropic with other people's money and the usual patting themselves on the back for it, #

The usual closing down of anyone who dare to disagree with them and raise real issues, although in fairness, Lamont did get a few valid UKIP policy points in and wasn't heckled and jeered and closed down, although had it been UKIP, well that would have been racist. 

So all the usual leftie stuff.  In fact Lamont was the only one who was actually allowed to get some home truths and facts in there without being crucified. The usual do as we say, not as we do, the usual ignoring the wishes of the majority of the population who elected them.

Anyway, what really grated me was the fact that in the midst of their philanthropic back patting and Trump crucifying they completely failed to recognize the fact that whilst they were all lambasting the Brexiteers those months ago because of their predicted downfall of the UK economy and the threat to unlimited immigration, they completely failed to see that snubbing the President of the largest superpower and biggest economy in the world, who as it stands, actually likes the UK and knows where the UK is, seems completely reasonable behavior for professional political diplomats who are supposed to represnt our economic interests.

So my conclusion is that they are all a bunch of self righteous pompous morons so far up their own asses that they have lost the only brain cell that they had between them.  Even Lamont is like a bespeckled wise old wizard compared to this crew.  I despair, I really do, I'd sack them all and start again.

marantz1300

Sambostar
 you need your meds
head straight to the bar

Sambostar

But seriously, how can anyone with a brain cell class themselves as a 'Life long labour supporter' these days?  I just don't get it.  I mean the party has gone from socialist to capitalist conservative to communist with it's policies changing equally radically

ToneControl

Sambostar said:

Whilst chiseling away rusty bodywork in prep for welding today I was listening to some question time thing with what sounded like Dimbleby on BBC2 or something.

It was the usual life long labour supporters and the usual righteous save the world leftard political crew who can't see past their own noses.

 Yep, the usual gupgoffing at UKIP and labeling anyone who objects to unlimited immigration or spending on the UK at the expense of other countries are racists rants, the usual Trump is a misogynist, sexist, racist thug, the usual throwing the toys out of the pram every time real issues were presented, the usual denying of reality and the usual universal agreement at how great they all are by being so philanthropic with other people's money and the usual patting themselves on the back for it, #

The usual closing down of anyone who dare to disagree with them and raise real issues, although in fairness, Lamont did get a few valid UKIP policy points in and wasn't heckled and jeered and closed down, although had it been UKIP, well that would have been racist. 

So all the usual leftie stuff.  In fact Lamont was the only one who was actually allowed to get some home truths and facts in there without being crucified. The usual do as we say, not as we do, the usual ignoring the wishes of the majority of the population who elected them.

Anyway, what really grated me was the fact that in the midst of their philanthropic back patting and Trump crucifying they completely failed to recognize the fact that whilst they were all lambasting the Brexiteers those months ago because of their predicted downfall of the UK economy and the threat to unlimited immigration, they completely failed to see that snubbing the President of the largest superpower and biggest economy in the world, who as it stands, actually likes the UK and knows where the UK is, seems completely reasonable behavior for professional political diplomats who are supposed to represnt our economic interests.

So my conclusion is that they are all a bunch of self righteous pompous morons so far up their own asses that they have lost the only brain cell that they had between them.  Even Lamont is like a bespeckled wise old wizard compared to this crew.  I despair, I really do, I'd sack them all and start again.

you shouldn't be posting so early in the day before you hit the beer, that is too  structured an analysis

Sambostar

Should it be with 'Whom' sounded like?  Dimbleby is an inanimate object as far as I'm concerned anyway.

TheBigDipper

Sambostar said:

But seriously, how can anyone with a brain cell class themselves as a 'Life long labour supporter' these days?  I just don't get it.  I mean the party has gone from socialist to capitalist conservative to communist with it's policies changing equally radically

Not just Labour, old chap. How can anyone support a political party like it is a football team? Surely the reasonable thing to do is decide what sort of a country you want to live in and find a party that wants as much of the same thing as you can get.

Labour, as you say, has been through lots of changes and the MPs are still at war with the members and the leadership. 
The Conservatives have undergone a regime change as a result of the Referendum. 
UKIP seems to only capture hearts and minds when Nige is in charge (and he'll be back, I'm sure).

"My party, right or wrong" just doesn't seem smart to me.

Heartfeltdawn

quarky said:

A look at the yougov polls would indicate that as popular as Corbyn appears to be with Labour Party members, he doesn't connect at all with the wider Labour voters. And that is the massive problem for the party. The wider Labour voting public don't want him, but the Labour membership currently do, and the demographics between the two would appear to be poles apart.

So either the Labour membership need to accept that their views are out of step with their previous voters, or another party needs to step into that left-Tory space that New Labour used to occupy to appeal to those voters. Labour would appeal so much more if they were anti-Brexit, but the Labour members don't want that. So to the vast majority of voters, Labour has very, very, very little to offer. Who on earth would vote for them currently?

But he isn't that popular with Labour Party members. Remember that 193,229 members last backed Owen Smith last year. 38.2% of the total votes were cast against the dear leader. We're not talking a small load of backbenchers grumbling or a small splinter group: we're talking a fucking large percentage of membership who don't rate him.

So what you have is a disconnect between Party members, a disconnect between pro- and anti-Corbyn MPs, and then you have that disconnect with the non-membership Labour supporter. 

Now you could go back to the leadership election of 1994. Blair won with 57% per cent of the vote, Prescott second with 24%, and Margaret Beckett bringing up the rear with 18.9%. Now the like of Corbyn and Abbott both backed Beckett. All three candidates represented different aspects of Labour. Blair was the new man, Prescott the union man, Beckett giving a female input and some ties to the old left. Neither Prescott or Beckett were jettisoned by Blair. Consequently you ended up with a Labour Shadow Cabinet of real variety. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadow_Cabinet_of_Tony_Blair

Compare that to the sycophantic crowd that makes up Corbyn's current team, all sat there with their fingers in their ears blaming Blair and Mandy. 

Heartfeltdawn

Nitefly said:

@@Heartfeltdawn ;- thanks for that, lucidly explained as usual.

Like you, I wonder how the Lib Dems failed to hoover them up - it looked like a natural home for them.

The Libs are a tainted brand from the coalition who are now fronted by a man so anonymous his own wife probably forgets what he's called. They need some serious financial backing and some serious press. Right now they aren't getting either. Until they do start getting some coverage, perhaps through a Labour heavy hitter joining them, then they're resigned to skulking in the shadows. 

Heartfeltdawn

Sambostar said:

Whilst chiseling away rusty bodywork in prep for welding today I was listening to some question time thing with what sounded like Dimbleby on BBC2 or something.

It was the usual life long labour supporters and the usual righteous save the world leftard political crew who can't see past their own noses.

 Yep, the usual gupgoffing at UKIP and labeling anyone who objects to unlimited immigration or spending on the UK at the expense of other countries are racists rants, the usual Trump is a misogynist, sexist, racist thug, the usual throwing the toys out of the pram every time real issues were presented, the usual denying of reality and the usual universal agreement at how great they all are by being so philanthropic with other people's money and the usual patting themselves on the back for it, #

The usual closing down of anyone who dare to disagree with them and raise real issues, although in fairness, Lamont did get a few valid UKIP policy points in and wasn't heckled and jeered and closed down, although had it been UKIP, well that would have been racist. 

So all the usual leftie stuff.  In fact Lamont was the only one who was actually allowed to get some home truths and facts in there without being crucified. The usual do as we say, not as we do, the usual ignoring the wishes of the majority of the population who elected them.

Anyway, what really grated me was the fact that in the midst of their philanthropic back patting and Trump crucifying they completely failed to recognize the fact that whilst they were all lambasting the Brexiteers those months ago because of their predicted downfall of the UK economy and the threat to unlimited immigration, they completely failed to see that snubbing the President of the largest superpower and biggest economy in the world, who as it stands, actually likes the UK and knows where the UK is, seems completely reasonable behavior for professional political diplomats who are supposed to represnt our economic interests.

So my conclusion is that they are all a bunch of self righteous pompous morons so far up their own asses that they have lost the only brain cell that they had between them.  Even Lamont is like a bespeckled wise old wizard compared to this crew.  I despair, I really do, I'd sack them all and start again.

1. Which party/parties want unlimited immigration?

2. The usual denying of reality - so there is no difference between Corynites and Trumpites!

3. Why would Lamont be getting UKIP policy points in when you had Arron Banks on the panel?

4. You say that Norman Lamont is a wise old wizard. Would you like to comment on Lamont's words about Trump from an interview with Mehdi Hasan?

"Norman Lamont: I totally agree with you, the rise of protectionism in the US, it's not just the rise of protectionism, I think almost everything about this US election is highly alarming and the rhetoric and the things Donald Trump and indeed the things Senator Cruz says I find extremely unpalatable. There is a lot of protectionism in the United States and you know the average, I remember once arguing about steel tariffs with the US congressmen and they just said "it's our constituents, end of argument".

5. You mention "ignoring the wishes of the majority of the population who elected them". McDonnell was the only MP and isn't against Brexit at all. 
 
6. Do you ever drink Pernod? 

Sambostar

1. All of them except UKIP

2. No, not really, none of them have any clue what they are doing.

3. Because every time Arron began to open his gob to say something he was immediately heckled, lambasted and shouted down, where as when Lamont or anybody else spoke, the panel remained quiet.

4. Lamont is not an old wizard, but he seems to be in comparison to the other amateurs, that was my point.

5. Fuck knows, I don't really keep up with politics, especially the lefty politicians on the BBC, I couldn't be arsed to retune the radio and found great joy in shouting wanker, twat or moron every time they tried to make one of their retarded points as it was a good distraction from the pain in my back and all the inaccessible spot welds that I couldn't drill reach to out.

Heartfeltdawn

And Pernod? I kind of picture you occasionally tucking into Pernod. Dunno why.