Erm... Brexiteers? Is this something we knew about?

ToneControl

vale said:

the tories are not going to come up with a brexit plan that makes anyone but the wealthy better off. & many of those among the lowest paid & unwaged (including sick & state pensioners) are going to get really beaten hard. because that is what tories do.
the hard reality of a tory-dictated hard brexit.

& in a few years time working class leave voters will be like the crying woman on question time, raging after she voted tory in 2015 on the basis they had promised not to cut tax credits, & then announced they would a few months after getting in. ever get the feeling you've been cheated?
universal credit replacing tax credits & above inflation rent rises will mean her family's living standards will crash anyway, but hey, all her fault for not having a triple-lock private pension or a buy-to-let portfolio to fall back on. so why should the tories care less if she has a nervous breakdown & her kids starve.

as long as the wealthy & the retired tory hardcore vote are protected & enriched, everyone else can be thoroughly fucked over. that is tory policy & brexit will reflect that policy in full.

why some tories fear blood on the streets in a couple of years:
Further spending cuts, higher taxes and a renewed squeeze on living standards all add up to trouble ahead.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/feb/19/why-some-tories-fear-blood-on-the-streets

not that I should defend the tories, but that woman crying on the TV was mocked at the time:
the tory manifesto specified £12b in benefit cuts, and  anyone living (partly) on benefits  would have been likely to suffer - so why did she vote for them?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2015/politics-blog/11724214/Where-George-Osbornes-12bn-welfare-cuts-will-fall.html

Personally, I think that Tax credits are a very clumsy  instrument, which  distort  employment in lower-paid jobs considerably

Anyway,  you're quite right - the tories naturally represent the  better-off

Nevertheless I'd  have thought that positive effects of Brexit  would benefit  the poor  as well as the rich: less competition for rented accommodation, less competition for lower-paid work

 

Octafish

ToneControl said:

not that I should defend the tories, but that woman crying on the TV was mocked at the time:
the tory manifesto specified £12b in benefit cuts, and  anyone living (partly) on benefits  would have been likely to suffer - so why did she vote for them?
 

Probably because she lapped up the simplistic, jingoistic shit about 'hard working families' that Camoron was spouting at the time in one of the many nasty crappy tabloids and was suckered in by the Tory/right wing press' rhetoric that all benefit claimants are unemployed (and possibly foreign ) and therefore gleefully voted Tory thinking 'bring it on, cut those scroungers benefits'.

Octafish

ToneControl said:

Nevertheless I'd  have thought that positive effects of Brexit  would benefit  the poor  as well as the rich: less competition for rented accommodation, less competition for lower-paid work
 

The property market is rigged to ensure demand, they'll never be a surplus of rented property or property for sale as it's not to the advantage of those who control the property market (including many politicians) in this country. No pleb has taken or is taking back any control, the political/corporatist/aristocratic elite prevelant in  the UK will continue to shaft the masses, let's enjoy .  

Teetonetal

So - who thinks that Germany is hedging bets .-  a little Olive branch to the UK. The future of the EU is not certain. Elections in France could spell the beginning of the end, though I really don't think Le Pen will get in, much will depend on how many vote and given results in Britain and the US, it ought to be a high turn out if people care.

Merkel is a very, very good politician IMO. A little bit of support for Britain now might be remembered in the future. Germany and Britain in partnership would be very strong.

Cirrus

Teetonetal said:

Merkel is a very, very good politician IMO. A little bit of support for Britain now might be remembered in the future. Germany and Britain in partnership would be very strong.

Just think of what we could have achieved together in 1940!

marantz1300

We are Great Britain

the greatest Empire ever.

We rule the waves and the world

It is our birth right.

it's those pesky foreigners that have messed everything up

Fretwired

marantz1300 said:

We are Great Britain

the greatest Empire ever.

We rule the waves and the world

It is our birth right.

it's those pesky foreigners that have messed everything up

It's Great Britain as in the larger island land mass, not because we're wonderful. Besides, we're the UK in the EU.

marantz1300

No ,it's definitely because we are  superior.

Snap

vale said:

the tories are not going to come up with a brexit plan that makes anyone but the wealthy better off. & many of those among the lowest paid & unwaged (including sick & state pensioners) are going to get really beaten hard. because that is what tories do.
the hard reality of a tory-dictated hard brexit.

& in a few years time working class leave voters will be like the crying woman on question time, raging after she voted tory in 2015 on the basis they had promised not to cut tax credits, & then announced they would a few months after getting in. ever get the feeling you've been cheated?
universal credit replacing tax credits & above inflation rent rises will mean her family's living standards will crash anyway, but hey, all her fault for not having a triple-lock private pension or a buy-to-let portfolio to fall back on. so why should the tories care less if she has a nervous breakdown & her kids starve.

as long as the wealthy & the retired tory hardcore vote are protected & enriched, everyone else can be thoroughly fucked over. that is tory policy & brexit will reflect that policy in full.

why some tories fear blood on the streets in a couple of years:
Further spending cuts, higher taxes and a renewed squeeze on living standards all add up to trouble ahead.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/feb/19/why-some-tories-fear-blood-on-the-streets

Working class? Just what does that mean? I work for a living: does that make me working class?
Thatcher's Dad was a grocer, from Lincs. So, I guess by most definition, that makes her (proably your nemesis) working class.

All this class talk is anachronistic, divisive and offensive. Its the sort of argumentative drivel used by people with chips on their shoulders.

I don't care where people come from, what they do or how educated they are or aren't. There are two classes of people IMo: those who know how to behave and those who don't. Class is about how you carry yourself and how you act towards other people. It's about respect, not income or background.

I positively hate the use of class in debate and discussion - its stereotypical and insulting.

And relax....my rant is over

ToneControl

Octafish said:

ToneControl said:

Nevertheless I'd  have thought that positive effects of Brexit  would benefit  the poor  as well as the rich: less competition for rented accommodation, less competition for lower-paid work
 

The property market is rigged to ensure demand, they'll never be a surplus of rented property or property for sale as it's not to the advantage of those who control the property market (including many politicians) in this country. No pleb has taken or is taking back any control, the political/corporatist/aristocratic elite prevelant in  the UK will continue to shaft the masses, let's enjoy .  

depends where you are
Some towns have surplus supply

certainly the ruling classes will continue to rule

ToneControl

Octafish said:

ToneControl said:

not that I should defend the tories, but that woman crying on the TV was mocked at the time:
the tory manifesto specified £12b in benefit cuts, and  anyone living (partly) on benefits  would have been likely to suffer - so why did she vote for them?
 

Probably because she lapped up the simplistic, jingoistic shit about 'hard working families' that Camoron was spouting at the time in one of the many nasty crappy tabloids and was suckered in by the Tory/right wing press' rhetoric that all benefit claimants are unemployed (and possibly foreign ) and therefore gleefully voted Tory thinking 'bring it on, cut those scroungers benefits'.

maybe so, but  she was  "running a nail salon in her home", which did not make a profit
This is  a situation in which you can claim  TCs based on logging 16 hours of work
I know someone who does busking and claims the same  way,
I'm not sure  that TCs were  intended to  support non-viable businesses, although they do of course subsidise low-paying employers,  which I think is immoral

This is why she should have known she was on thin ice - she wasn't running a functional business, and to assume an affinity with the tories  should have been  an obvious error

She now works for Momentum

57Deluxe

I think this is a confusion over subs that would have been paid ordinarily as part of some of the alliances and is based on 3 years (inc the 2 pre leaving). And anyway, any further asks fo cash can be met with one of these after:

http://ruinmyweek.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/the-best-funniest-photos-kids-middle-finger-Finger-Angry-Kid.jpg

ToneControl

Snap said:

vale said:

the tories are not going to come up with a brexit plan that makes anyone but the wealthy better off. & many of those among the lowest paid & unwaged (including sick & state pensioners) are going to get really beaten hard. because that is what tories do.
the hard reality of a tory-dictated hard brexit.

& in a few years time working class leave voters will be like the crying woman on question time, raging after she voted tory in 2015 on the basis they had promised not to cut tax credits, & then announced they would a few months after getting in. ever get the feeling you've been cheated?
universal credit replacing tax credits & above inflation rent rises will mean her family's living standards will crash anyway, but hey, all her fault for not having a triple-lock private pension or a buy-to-let portfolio to fall back on. so why should the tories care less if she has a nervous breakdown & her kids starve.

as long as the wealthy & the retired tory hardcore vote are protected & enriched, everyone else can be thoroughly fucked over. that is tory policy & brexit will reflect that policy in full.

why some tories fear blood on the streets in a couple of years:
Further spending cuts, higher taxes and a renewed squeeze on living standards all add up to trouble ahead.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/feb/19/why-some-tories-fear-blood-on-the-streets

Working class? Just what does that mean? I work for a living: does that make me working class?
Thatcher's Dad was a grocer, from Lincs. So, I guess by most definition, that makes her (proably your nemesis) working class.

All this class talk is anachronistic, divisive and offensive. Its the sort of argumentative drivel used by people with chips on their shoulders.

I don't care where people come from, what they do or how educated they are or aren't. There are two classes of people IMo: those who know how to behave and those who don't. Class is about how you carry yourself and how you act towards other people. It's about respect, not income or background.

I positively hate the use of class in debate and discussion - its stereotypical and insulting.

And relax....my rant is over

Class hatred is also what was used as an excuse by the "rioters" in  2011
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_England_riots

I can remember hearing interviews  with teenage girls, happy to  burn down and loot Asian corner shops because the  people who ran them were "loaded" and did not deserve their lifestyle. Pathetic.

ToneControl

here's the class war teenagers from 2011:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14458424

Snap

Tossers, one and all. I really despise it, can't articulate how much. Further, the inverse snobbery of it, when people go on and on about how they are "so working class". Who gives a monkey's? I think people use the term "working class" as a label to mean "not very well off". And then it gets used as a weapon to pillory people with money.

Most people with money have earned it and worked hard to get it. They aren't shysters who've shat on people to get it, they are grafters, plain and simple. But no-one wants to talk about them do they? Nah, they prefer to get all tabloid and generalise about "fat cats" who stamp on the noble "working class". These are the minority, they really are.

If you aren't happy with your life, do something about. Don't look for someone else to blame.I have been told that since I was a kid. Works for me.

Octafish

ToneControl said:

Octafish said:

ToneControl said:

not that I should defend the tories, but that woman crying on the TV was mocked at the time:
the tory manifesto specified £12b in benefit cuts, and  anyone living (partly) on benefits  would have been likely to suffer - so why did she vote for them?
 

Probably because she lapped up the simplistic, jingoistic shit about 'hard working families' that Camoron was spouting at the time in one of the many nasty crappy tabloids and was suckered in by the Tory/right wing press' rhetoric that all benefit claimants are unemployed (and possibly foreign ) and therefore gleefully voted Tory thinking 'bring it on, cut those scroungers benefits'.

maybe so, but  she was  "running a nail salon in her home", which did not make a profit
This is  a situation in which you can claim  TCs based on logging 16 hours of work
I know someone who does busking and claims the same  way,
I'm not sure  that TCs were  intended to  support non-viable businesses, although they do of course subsidise low-paying employers,  which I think is immoral

This is why she should have known she was on thin ice - she wasn't running a functional business, and to assume an affinity with the tories  should have been  an obvious error

She now works for Momentum

Unfortunately it appears she, like many others, unquestioningly fell for divide and rule tactics of the Tories and applied so little analysis and critical thinking to the matter of benefits that she just assumed 'well I'm working so I must be one of the good guys or one of Cameron's hardworking families and not a benefits scrounger, so i'm safe'. She failed to spot that anyone on tax credits, disability benefit or in receiving a government pension are actually in receipt of benefits. She just made the usual right wing, reactionary, simplistic assumption that only the lazy, unemployed, junkies, single mums and of course immigrants claim benefits.

Tax credits were designed to win votes without making much effort or upsetting big business. I agree they are immoral because the tax payer is basically subsidising businesses so they don't have to pay a decent wage and can keep creaming in a good profit at the tax payers expense.

Octafish

ToneControl said:

Octafish said:

ToneControl said:

Nevertheless I'd  have thought that positive effects of Brexit  would benefit  the poor  as well as the rich: less competition for rented accommodation, less competition for lower-paid work
 

The property market is rigged to ensure demand, they'll never be a surplus of rented property or property for sale as it's not to the advantage of those who control the property market (including many politicians) in this country. No pleb has taken or is taking back any control, the political/corporatist/aristocratic elite prevelant in  the UK will continue to shaft the masses, let's enjoy .  

depends where you are
Some towns have surplus supply

certainly the ruling classes will continue to rule

Yeah, but isn't that surplus mainly in places where no one wants to live and there is little to no employment opportunities?

Fretwired

I see the basis of a deal taking shape ...

As part of a diplomatic charm offensive across eastern Europe, David Davis declared that the UK would keep its doors open for low-skilled workers in hospitality, agriculture and social care. His comments could imply that Britons would be reluctant or unable to fill the manual jobs vacated by the EU citizens straight away. He said. “Don’t expect just because we’re changing who makes the decision on the policy, the door will suddenly shut. It won’t.”

So that's effectively a ban on freedom of movement being shelved by the UK.

And Germany has called for the European Union to scrap human rights safeguards so migrants can be deported to countries currently considered unsafe. Under the plan, asylum-seekers who cross the Mediterranean illegally could be sent back to transit countries such as Libya, Tunisia, and Algeria while their cases are considered. This is something May has wanted for years.

Rocker

60 Billion plus the VAT. Don't forget the VAT!

Myranda

Fretwired said:

I see the basis of a deal taking shape ...

As part of a diplomatic charm offensive across eastern Europe, David Davis declared that the UK would keep its doors open for low-skilled workers in hospitality, agriculture and social care. His comments could imply that Britons would be reluctant or unable to fill the manual jobs vacated by the EU citizens straight away. He said. “Don’t expect just because we’re changing who makes the decision on the policy, the door will suddenly shut. It won’t.”

So that's effectively a ban on freedom of movement being shelved by the UK.

And Germany has called for the European Union to scrap human rights safeguards so migrants can be deported to countries currently considered unsafe. Under the plan, asylum-seekers who cross the Mediterranean illegally could be sent back to transit countries such as Libya, Tunisia, and Algeria while their cases are considered. This is something May has wanted for years.

i think ( or would hope ) that David Davis looked at the 3 million EU migrants in the UK - most of whom are working, and thought "we don't have 3 million unemployed-job-seeking-people... so if we make the rules that on the day we leave the EU they all have to go home, then we all better learn to plumb some electricity while cleaning our own offices... 

They could still have a rule that no NEW migrants could come in... thus killing Freedom of Movement - though one would hope not