Erm... Brexiteers? Is this something we knew about?

fields5069

Surely this thread's title is ironic?

I was under the impression that, on the whole and on both sides, the campaigns undertaken in the run up to the Brexit vote were full of misinformation and lacking essential information. I don't know how anyone could have voted Leave on the understanding that this would save money.

Fretwired

Myranda said:

i think ( or would hope ) that David Davis looked at the 3 million EU migrants in the UK - most of whom are working, and thought "we don't have 3 million unemployed-job-seeking-people... so if we make the rules that on the day we leave the EU they all have to go home, then we all better learn to plumb some electricity while cleaning our own offices... 

They could still have a rule that no NEW migrants could come in... thus killing Freedom of Movement - though one would hope not

Won't happen - skilled people are going to be exempt - if they get a job offer or have a skill (doctor, engineer etc) they're in. The UK is short of unskilled labour. I have consistently said that immigration won't fall and anyone who voted Brexit because they thought it would was deluded. There are plans to build 60,000 new homes in my area - these won't get built without a lot of new EU migrants.

The EU isn't helping - an interim agreement on EU nationals in the UK and UK nationals in the EU could have been reached so they feel safe and secure. But Junker's a stubborn old fool whose time is up.

Fretwired

Rocker said:

60 Billion plus the VAT. Don't forget the VAT!

It's exempt from VAT ... ;-)

Octafish

Fretwired said:

Rocker said:

60 Billion plus the VAT. Don't forget the VAT!

It's exempt from VAT ... ;-)

If not Juncker knows a few tricks from his previous jobs to avoid tax!

scrumhalf

I've not seen much debate about the difference between freedom of movement and freedom of settlement. I can imagine some wrangling taking place about that in the future.

Fretwired

Why freedom of movement won't be scrapped ..

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/02/22/britain-needs-hire-400000-workers-year-keep-building-homes/

Axe_meister

How can we be short on unskilled labour when we have 1.65m unemployed?

Myranda

Axe_meister said:

How can we be short on unskilled labour when we have 1.65m unemployed?

Because a lot of those will be disabled or sick... or otherwise unable to lay bricks, or carry bricks...

And that's not counting those geographically unable to get to the building sites... 

Evilmags

Axe_meister said:

How can we be short on unskilled labour when we have 1.65m unemployable?

People in many industries don't wish to hire a bunch of Jeremy Kyle types in any job that has contact with the public. The sort of British people who are polite and well behaved enough have generally also acquired skills to place them in more profitable or less onerous parts of the Labour market.  

Cirrus

I've always assumed it's because, for example, an unemployed 35 year old office worker living in Sunderland with a young family isn't going to want to move to Devon to pick apples for £10/hour.

marantz1300

that should be £3 an hour.

marantz1300

Snap said:

vale said:

the tories are not going to come up with a brexit plan that makes anyone but the wealthy better off. & many of those among the lowest paid & unwaged (including sick & state pensioners) are going to get really beaten hard. because that is what tories do.
the hard reality of a tory-dictated hard brexit.

& in a few years time working class leave voters will be like the crying woman on question time, raging after she voted tory in 2015 on the basis they had promised not to cut tax credits, & then announced they would a few months after getting in. ever get the feeling you've been cheated?
universal credit replacing tax credits & above inflation rent rises will mean her family's living standards will crash anyway, but hey, all her fault for not having a triple-lock private pension or a buy-to-let portfolio to fall back on. so why should the tories care less if she has a nervous breakdown & her kids starve.

as long as the wealthy & the retired tory hardcore vote are protected & enriched, everyone else can be thoroughly fucked over. that is tory policy & brexit will reflect that policy in full.

why some tories fear blood on the streets in a couple of years:
Further spending cuts, higher taxes and a renewed squeeze on living standards all add up to trouble ahead.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/feb/19/why-some-tories-fear-blood-on-the-streets

Working class? Just what does that mean? I work for a living: does that make me working class?
Thatcher's Dad was a grocer, from Lincs. So, I guess by most definition, that makes her (proably your nemesis) working class.

All this class talk is anachronistic, divisive and offensive. Its the sort of argumentative drivel used by people with chips on their shoulders.

I don't care where people come from, what they do or how educated they are or aren't. There are two classes of people IMo: those who know how to behave and those who don't. Class is about how you carry yourself and how you act towards other people. It's about respect, not income or background.

I positively hate the use of class in debate and discussion - its stereotypical and insulting.

And relax....my rant is over

I agree

 That's why you see so many public school boys digging roads and working in foundries and so few privileged men working as barristers and sitting in the Tory cabinet.

Cirrus

marantz1300 said:

that should be £3 an hour.

I was wondering where to pitch it, but I seem to recall some of these jobs are actually reasonably well paid. Of course, there is the other side of it, with seedy employees exploiting vulnerable migrants who are essentially slaves...

marantz1300

Oh dear what a surprise.

David Davis is backpedalling.

It will take "years and years" before British workers are ready to fill the low-skilled jobs left by EU migrants, Brexit Secretary David Davis has conceded.

He said the UK was not about to "suddenly shut the door" on low-skilled EU migrants because UK nationals were not likely to take up the low-paid jobs in care, farming or hotels and restaurants for some time.

Mr Davis' comments, made during a visit to Estonia, will raise questions over Theresa May's pledge to use Brexit to take back control of immigration and reduce net migration to the tens of thousands.

The Prime Minister has consistently said the UK wants to continue to attract talent, but this has focused on the highly skilled workers in industries such as finance and technology - not careworkers, fruit pickers and barristas.

However, the Brexit Secretary warned: "In the hospitality sector, hotels and restaurants, in the social care sector, working in agriculture, it will take time - it will be years and years before we get British citizens to do those jobs.

"Don't expect just because we're changing who makes the decision on the policy, the door will suddenly shut: it won't."

He added: "We're a successful economy, largely or partly at least because we have clever people, talented people come to Britain.

"Even on the wider area, where we've got less well-paid people who have come to live and work in Britain, that will take time."

 

 

Snap

marantz1300 said:

Snap said:

vale said:

the tories are not going to come up with a brexit plan that makes anyone but the wealthy better off. & many of those among the lowest paid & unwaged (including sick & state pensioners) are going to get really beaten hard. because that is what tories do.
the hard reality of a tory-dictated hard brexit.

& in a few years time working class leave voters will be like the crying woman on question time, raging after she voted tory in 2015 on the basis they had promised not to cut tax credits, & then announced they would a few months after getting in. ever get the feeling you've been cheated?
universal credit replacing tax credits & above inflation rent rises will mean her family's living standards will crash anyway, but hey, all her fault for not having a triple-lock private pension or a buy-to-let portfolio to fall back on. so why should the tories care less if she has a nervous breakdown & her kids starve.

as long as the wealthy & the retired tory hardcore vote are protected & enriched, everyone else can be thoroughly fucked over. that is tory policy & brexit will reflect that policy in full.

why some tories fear blood on the streets in a couple of years:
Further spending cuts, higher taxes and a renewed squeeze on living standards all add up to trouble ahead.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/feb/19/why-some-tories-fear-blood-on-the-streets

Working class? Just what does that mean? I work for a living: does that make me working class?
Thatcher's Dad was a grocer, from Lincs. So, I guess by most definition, that makes her (proably your nemesis) working class.

All this class talk is anachronistic, divisive and offensive. Its the sort of argumentative drivel used by people with chips on their shoulders.

I don't care where people come from, what they do or how educated they are or aren't. There are two classes of people IMo: those who know how to behave and those who don't. Class is about how you carry yourself and how you act towards other people. It's about respect, not income or background.

I positively hate the use of class in debate and discussion - its stereotypical and insulting.

And relax....my rant is over

I agree

 That's why you see so many public school boys digging roads and working in foundries and so few privileged men working as barristers and sitting in the Tory cabinet.

You are using extremes to make a point and totally overlooking the day to day. What's wrong with being educated and in government? Wouldn't you want that? Yep, needs to be backed with a reality check and maybe a dickhead reduction quota, but I don't have an issue with MPs being educated, or barristers. I wouldn't want a steelworker representing me in court, unless he'd been to the bar and earned his stripes. SImilary I wouldn';t want a barrister building the steel that makes up the frame of an office building.

Class has nothing to do with it. It's BS.

As for Tories being full of public school boys, just take a look at the Labour Party too. And like I said, have a look at Maggie's background.

marantz1300

there was a report out recently saying those educated in public schools get higher saleriies then people from other backgrounds who have acheived better grades in thhe same job.
 the point was not disputing barristers and mp's qualificaytions, just its still a closed shop in some careers.

marantz1300

mmy children are educated.
my daughter did her degree ,masters and PHD
at Imperial .
she's an entomologist doing resurch for a company in Oxford.
my son's finishing his PHD in partical physics at CERN in switzerland.
The big collider.
 they have both seen people they studied with who didn't acheived firsts
getting fast tracked and promoted who came from more elite backgrounds then their own.

ToneControl

Octafish said:

ToneControl said:

Octafish said:

ToneControl said:

Nevertheless I'd  have thought that positive effects of Brexit  would benefit  the poor  as well as the rich: less competition for rented accommodation, less competition for lower-paid work
 

The property market is rigged to ensure demand, they'll never be a surplus of rented property or property for sale as it's not to the advantage of those who control the property market (including many politicians) in this country. No pleb has taken or is taking back any control, the political/corporatist/aristocratic elite prevelant in  the UK will continue to shaft the masses, let's enjoy .  

depends where you are
Some towns have surplus supply

certainly the ruling classes will continue to rule

Yeah, but isn't that surplus mainly in places where no one wants to live and there is little to no employment opportunities?

of course, by  definition. Some are awful . some are better than where  people pay big money for in London
I'd rather live near Anfield than any poor part of London

which is why  I wonder if it would be ethical to require long-term  claimants to move to areas  where the state can provide for them more economically (and I don't mean horrible places, just not  property hotspots like the south east).
Before anyone says - yes I know it could separate people from family and friends, but  bear in mind that the same sacrifice  is made by many paying taxes - who cannot afford to live  near their kin  either

ToneControl

Myranda said:

Fretwired said:

I see the basis of a deal taking shape ...

As part of a diplomatic charm offensive across eastern Europe, David Davis declared that the UK would keep its doors open for low-skilled workers in hospitality, agriculture and social care. His comments could imply that Britons would be reluctant or unable to fill the manual jobs vacated by the EU citizens straight away. He said. “Don’t expect just because we’re changing who makes the decision on the policy, the door will suddenly shut. It won’t.”

So that's effectively a ban on freedom of movement being shelved by the UK.

And Germany has called for the European Union to scrap human rights safeguards so migrants can be deported to countries currently considered unsafe. Under the plan, asylum-seekers who cross the Mediterranean illegally could be sent back to transit countries such as Libya, Tunisia, and Algeria while their cases are considered. This is something May has wanted for years.

i think ( or would hope ) that David Davis looked at the 3 million EU migrants in the UK - most of whom are working, and thought "we don't have 3 million unemployed-job-seeking-people... so if we make the rules that on the day we leave the EU they all have to go home, then we all better learn to plumb some electricity while cleaning our own offices... 

They could still have a rule that no NEW migrants could come in... thus killing Freedom of Movement - though one would hope not

I never thought they'd send anyone  back who was here already

Garthy

marantz1300 said:

mmy children are educated.
my daughter did her degree ,masters and PHD
at Imperial .
she's an entomologist doing resurch for a company in Oxford.
my son's finishing his PHD in partical physics at CERN in switzerland.
The big collider.
 they have both seen people they studied with who didn't acheived firsts
getting fast tracked and promoted who came from more elite backgrounds then their own.

Nepotism and an old boys club is not exclusive to the elite. Who you know not what you know can be heard uttered in many walks of life from train drivers to Fleet Street to offshore rigging etc.