Gibson R8 or Harley Benton with Pickup Upgrades?

richardhomer

Philly_Q said:

redrighthand said:

Though for anyone that way inclined, the following YouTuber seems to have found a HB with a very big neck (going by how much he bangs on about it anyway) 

Gosh, I have never heard anyone go on so much about a guitar neck.

If it really is that huge I'm almost tempted to buy one.

I wonder if he actually bought it - or crowd-funded it?

thegummy

ICBM said:

thegummy said:

One might wonder if someone has convinced themselves that there isn't a big difference between a 250 quid and a 4500 quid because they have a cheap guitar and don't want to feel like they're missing out.

A similar accusation could be made that someone who's spent 4 grand on a guitar wouldn't want to believe that they could have gotten pretty much the same thing for 250 quid.

Or you may accept that the difference is tiny, and the cost of getting it is out of all proportion to the result, but that there is still a difference.

The real cutoff point is when paying even more *doesn’t* result in a quality improvement, even a small one.

Absolutely, there seems to be such a wide variety of beliefs.

I think Harley Benton are pretty much the cheapest guitars I've seen so, presumably, those who feel they're already just as good as anything feel that diminishing returns happens already at the second cheapest guitar.

I find it very easy to get caught up in theoretical quality comparisons and can almost briefly lose sight of the main important thing which is whether something can be used to make great music or not. For example, in a band that I'm absolutely loving lately - Khruangbin - the bassist plays an SX bass (which I think are at least in the ball park of Harley Benton) and I get an intense amount of pleasure out of the sound she makes with that instrument. I would possibly even guess that if she swapped it for a Custom Shop bass for the record, I might not get any extra enjoyment at all.

On the other hand, if I'm listening to another favourite of mine - John Mayer - who does use expensive gear, I get so much pleasure out of the subtleties of the sound his rig makes as he plays it so precisely. I could believe that I'd get slightly less pleasure from it if he used budget gear.

Having said the above re: losing sight; I do think that when someone dedicates a large part of their life to making music and puts everything they can in to making it as good as possible, it's understandable they'd want to spend as much as they can afford on gear if it truly will benefit the sound of their music.

ICBM

Just for a bit of a diversion... if I had a Harley Benton, and I wanted to gig with it, which component(s) would I regard as an essential upgrade?

Clue - the devil is in the details.

munckee

ICBM said:

Just for a bit of a diversion... if I had a Harley Benton, and I wanted to gig with it, which component(s) would I regard as an essential upgrade?

Clue - the devil is in the details.

For mine only the pickups and tuners felt like they needed upgrading.

p90fool

ICBM said:

Just for a bit of a diversion... if I had a Harley Benton, and I wanted to gig with it, which component(s) would I regard as an essential upgrade?

Clue - the devil is in the details.

Jack socket.

ICBM

p90fool said:

Jack socket.

Bingo. Why no-one other than Switchcraft can make a decent open-frame jack is beyond me, but if that breaks you're in trouble. They cost something like five times what a cheap junk one does, and are worth every penny.

There are two more...

Philly_Q

ICBM said:

p90fool said:

Jack socket.

Bingo. Why no-one other than Switchcraft can make a decent open-frame jack is beyond me, but if that breaks you're in trouble. They cost something like five times what a cheap junk one does, and are worth every penny.

There are two more...

Selector switch?

dazzajl

ICBM said:

p90fool said:

Jack socket.

Bingo. Why no-one other than Switchcraft can make a decent open-frame jack is beyond me, but if that breaks you're in trouble. They cost something like five times what a cheap junk one does, and are worth every penny.

There are two more...

Along the lines of that wisdom, pickup switch and strap buttons?

ICBM

dazzajl said:

Along the lines of that wisdom, pickup switch and strap buttons?

Strap buttons - or more specifically, just the screws if you use some sort of strap retainer like Grolsch washers. The screws are usually undersized on cheap guitars and likely to pull out of the wood or just snap.

The switches aren't too bad but it would probably be the next candidate.

So there it is - what *really* separates a Harley Benton from an R8 in terms of what makes a professional-quality musical instrument - a fiver's worth of parts, or a tenner if you're being fussy . Everything else is just diminishing returns...

crunchman

ICBM said:

p90fool said:

Jack socket.

Bingo. Why no-one other than Switchcraft can make a decent open-frame jack is beyond me, but if that breaks you're in trouble. They cost something like five times what a cheap junk one does, and are worth every penny.

There are two more...

Pots.  I hate the scratchy pots you get on cheap guitars.

darthed1981

thegummy said:

ICBM said:

Or you may accept that the difference is tiny, and the cost of getting it is out of all proportion to the result, but that there is still a difference.

 I do think that when someone dedicates a large part of their life to making music and puts everything they can in to making it as good as possible, it's understandable they'd want to spend as much as they can afford on gear if it truly will benefit the sound of their music.

These points sum up both the sides of the debate from my POV perfectly.

Sassafras

ICBM said:

thegummy said:

You can't con your way to being a professional musician by having a brand name guitar.

I'm pretty sure it has happened... I'm certain I've read of someone getting a chance to join a band which went on to become famous because "he had a real Gibson Les Paul" (or Fender Strat, I don't remember), as opposed to the other guy who only had a Top Twenty or something. OK you also need some talent and a lot of luck as well, but if it was having the right guitar that got your foot in the door in the first place, the rest could be down to that.

I'm fairly certain that some people have also been offered big chances because they've got the right hair or the right clothes rather than the exceptional musical talent.
Superficiality is a strong persuader.

ICBM

crunchman said:

Pots.  I hate the scratchy pots you get on cheap guitars.

Contact cleaner will usually sort them out, but if not then yes.

It's interesting isn't it - the bits that make the most difference in a practical sense are not the type of woods, the pickups, or even the more expensive hardware like the machineheads (although they may be on the list, but further up), but the cheapest parts... the ones where penny-pinching on the quality makes the least difference to the final price.

Philly_Q

ICBM said:

dazzajl said:

Along the lines of that wisdom, pickup switch and strap buttons?

Strap buttons - or more specifically, just the screws if you use some sort of strap retainer like Grolsch washers. The screws are usually undersized on cheap guitars and likely to pull out of the wood or just snap.

That's a good point.  I've got a PRS SE EG, a pretty well-made guitar, but all the screws - strap buttons, scratchplate, jack plate - were puny little things which just dropped out of the holes after a couple of turns.  It would cost almost nothing to use sturdier ones.

thegummy

Philly_Q said:

ICBM said:

dazzajl said:

Along the lines of that wisdom, pickup switch and strap buttons?

Strap buttons - or more specifically, just the screws if you use some sort of strap retainer like Grolsch washers. The screws are usually undersized on cheap guitars and likely to pull out of the wood or just snap.

That's a good point.  I've got a PRS SE EG, a pretty well-made guitar, but all the screws - strap buttons, scratchplate, jack plate - were puny little things which just dropped out of the holes after a couple of turns.  It would cost almost nothing to use sturdier ones.

Haven't had that issue with SE's but I fear it's going to happen with the neck bolts on my bass since they've been screwed and unscrewed so many times due to the truss rod adjustment being at the neck heel.

Usually I just put a bit of cocktail stick in with smaller screws, anyone know any tips for large screws like the neck bolts?

crunchman

ICBM said:

crunchman said:

Pots.  I hate the scratchy pots you get on cheap guitars.

Contact cleaner will usually sort them out, but if not then yes.

It's interesting isn't it - the bits that make the most difference in a practical sense are not the type of woods, the pickups, or even the more expensive hardware like the machineheads (although they may be on the list, but further up), but the cheapest parts... the ones where penny-pinching on the quality makes the least difference to the final price.

The woods do make a difference.  I don't mind playing cheaper guitars, but I don't want some thin sounding unresponsive lump of a guitar. 

It definitely is the wood.  I've had guitars that were very bright sounding unplugged, and sounded very thin when plugged in.  Pickup swaps did not help.  The plugged in sound is dependent on the unplugged sound.  It is the wood (and construction) of the guitar.

That's not necessarily entirely down to price.  I've seen cheap guitars that sound really good (even with stock pickups).  My brother in law had a Squier Affinity Tele that sounded really good.  Wouldn't stay in tune but sounded great.  On the other hand, you can get thin sounding expensive guitars.  More care goes into the selection of wood on more expensive ones, so it's less likely but it does happen.

The hardware on cheap guitars generally isn't good though.  Whatever the pickups are like, the pots, bridges, and machine heads normally let down what could be a very good guitar.

By the time you spend significant money upgrading those things on a basic guitar, you are probably better off spending £600 and getting a Mexican Fender or a PRS SE.  The pickups might not be great but the hardware and conctruction is much better quality.

Above that £600 price point, there are diminishing returns, but it's the same with anything.  A £7k Dacia will feel cheap. A £20k Toyota is a huge step up, and will be reliable, and do anything most drivers will want, but it isn't as nice as a £50k Merc.  Likewise with watches.  You can get a basic watch for a fiver, but it will be rubbish.  You can spend £30 and get something much better.  You can spend £200 and get something that, for all practical purposes, is just as good as a Rolex, but people still buy Rolexes.

The Harley Benton stuff is in the £7k Dacia range.  It is cheap and corners are cut.  It will work, in the same way that a Dacia will get you to work in the morning, but both will have limitations.  The Dacia will have uncomfortable seats and a crummy stereo, and might leave you stuck behind something unable to overtake.  In the same way, the HB won't feel as nice as a higher end guitar, and the stock set up won't be as good as it could be.  The pickups won't be great sounding.

For me, it's that £600 price point that is in the Toyota range.  You get something good and solid, with consistently good engineering.  Unlike cars though, guitars are made from an organic material, so some of those £600 guitars will still sound better than others.  Yes you can put better hardware and pickups on a cheapie, and get a good set up, but unless you can do all the work yourself, it's going to cost £300 and you might as well buy a £600 guitar to start with.

ICBM

thegummy said:

Haven't had that issue with SE's but I fear it's going to happen with the neck bolts on my bass since they've been screwed and unscrewed so many times due to the truss rod adjustment being at the neck heel.

Usually I just put a bit of cocktail stick in with smaller screws, anyone know any tips for large screws like the neck bolts?

Put wood glue in the hole, pack it tightly with cocktail sticks, then put it back together immediately while the glue is still wet. The compression of the screw and the wood fibres will create an extremely strong composite thread around the remains of the old one when the glue sets.

This sounds like a bodge, but it's actually the best and strongest way.

TINMAN82

I suspect many of those that see guitars purely as functional tools don’t spend much time commenting on forums like this.

There’s nothing wrong with appreciating instruments for their craftsmanship and material value.

In my experience, when you're down at the £300 mark, as a matter of course you can expect dodgy routing, stripped screws as factory standard, no fret dressing (I’ve seen dull, rusty frets on a new Ibanez at £700!) and muddy pickups. You’re also looking at poorer (aesthetic) grades of wood, most importantly the fretboard where a rough, dry piece of cardboard brown “rosewood” looks like crap. 

Yes diminishing returns applies early, particularly where the instrument is considered purely as a tool. But I don’t think many people will be buying a 60th anniversary R9 in the firm belief it’ll make them sound any better than they would on a USA standard.

Sometimes its just nice to have quality stuff.

p90fool

TINMAN82 said:

I suspect many of those that see guitars purely as functional tools don’t spend much time commenting on forums like this.

In my experience though they're even more susceptible to mythology and nonsense than those who are active online. 

Yes, we're suckers for "mojo" and custom shop silliness, but we're kind of aware of our susceptibility at the same time. 

I know two players who never look at guitar forums who've bought Chibsons thinking they're real, and it's almost universal among technophobes that Valvestate Marshalls are "real valve amps just like Jimi used".

We might be a bunch of mug punters on here, but we know it and revel in it. 

thegummy

crunchman said:

ICBM said:

crunchman said:

Pots.  I hate the scratchy pots you get on cheap guitars.

Contact cleaner will usually sort them out, but if not then yes.

It's interesting isn't it - the bits that make the most difference in a practical sense are not the type of woods, the pickups, or even the more expensive hardware like the machineheads (although they may be on the list, but further up), but the cheapest parts... the ones where penny-pinching on the quality makes the least difference to the final price.

The woods do make a difference.  I don't mind playing cheaper guitars, but I don't want some thin sounding unresponsive lump of a guitar. 

It definitely is the wood.  I've had guitars that were very bright sounding unplugged, and sounded very thin when plugged in.  Pickup swaps did not help.  The plugged in sound is dependent on the unplugged sound.  It is the wood (and construction) of the guitar

The unplugged sound would include reflections off the top of the body though, wouldn't it? Yet the plugged in sound wouldn't, would it?