CONGRATULATIONS! BCD is now gone.

Bridgehouse · August 2020

UnclePsychosis said:

Bridgehouse said:

Six pages in, and plenty of comments about how it’s a shame, how we should have a forum that can’t be seen on google, how we should have a forum with no moderation, how the changes will mean an increased mod workload, etc etc etc

But hardly any comments on how the membership collectively could address the issue that caused this in the first place.

Therein lies the problem.
I've said this before, but whilst I strongly believe the "common sense" approach to moderation that has been tried so far is to the forum's credit its also the reason why the mods here are fed up - if the acceptable behaviour is vaguely defined then people will always cross lines and then argue about it. Unfortunately, what "don't be a dick" means is completely different from one person to the next and this forum consists of several thousand members of the public: even with the best of intentions we are never going to agree on what being a dick means and let's face it on the internet those with the worst of intentions will always appear. So people behave in a way that they think meets the "don't be a dick" rule only to be told by someone else that they've violated it. Or people see behaviour from others which they think is dickish which then goes unpunished. Both of these create friction.

The current approach also led to the weird situation a few weeks ago where several racist posts got removed (with no further punishment handed out) and the mods said "everyone gets a second chance" (fair enough I suppose) and then a few days later a different mod is threatening to ban people if they don't use the search function before posting (erm...).

I really like this forum, I have a lot of respect and gratitude for lee and the guys who put so much effort into running it. So I don't want this post to come across as criticism - it's their forum and they can do what they want - but if it were me the rules would be a lot less open to interpretation. It may not be what the mods want to do but I think ultimately it would make their life a lot easier.

I don’t disagree. I think a rules tidy up is in order - and much as it’s a pain in the arse we really do want to try and keep the forum as light touch as possible.

octatonic · August 2020

This is going well.

Emp_Fab · August 2020

Bridgehouse said:

Emp_Fab said:

Bridgehouse said:

Six pages in, and plenty of comments about how it’s a shame, how we should have a forum that can’t be seen on google, how we should have a forum with no moderation, how the changes will mean an increased mod workload, etc etc etc

But hardly any comments on how the membership collectively could address the issue that caused this in the first place.

Therein lies the problem.

That's like asking the general public to collectively behave so the police don't need to exist!

Attempting to lightly moderate the Wild West is where the problem lies - in my opinion.

Are you suggesting a more iron-rod style of moderation?

Yes. It's what I wanted when I was a mod. I've always felt that you can't expect people to comply with vague rules that are open to interpretation - e.g. "don't be a dick". It becomes an impossible task for the moderators.

Either have a free-for-all or a dictator style approach. Trying to sit on the fence and please everyone is a rod for your own backs.

You can't deny that it's been inconsistent in BCD in terms of modmin approach recently. I believe that's because you have several mods, each with their own interpretation of vague rules albeit written with the best of intentions.

If boundaries are not crystal-clear in their definition, you can't expect everyone to see where they are.

Bridgehouse · August 2020

Emp_Fab said:

Bridgehouse said:

Emp_Fab said:

Bridgehouse said:

Six pages in, and plenty of comments about how it’s a shame, how we should have a forum that can’t be seen on google, how we should have a forum with no moderation, how the changes will mean an increased mod workload, etc etc etc

But hardly any comments on how the membership collectively could address the issue that caused this in the first place.

Therein lies the problem.

That's like asking the general public to collectively behave so the police don't need to exist!

Attempting to lightly moderate the Wild West is where the problem lies - in my opinion.

Are you suggesting a more iron-rod style of moderation?

Yes. It's what I wanted when I was a mod. I've always felt that you can't expect people to comply with vague rules that are open to interpretation - e.g. "don't be a dick". It becomes an impossible task for the moderators.

Either have a free-for-all or a dictator style approach. Trying to sit on the fence and please everyone is a rod for your own backs.

You can't deny that it's been inconsistent in BCD in terms of modmin approach recently. I believe that's because you have several mods, each with their own interpretation of vague rules albeit written with the best of intentions.

If boundaries are not crystal-clear in their definition, you can't expect everyone to see where they are.

Well, I think it’s pretty clear what we need to do going forward.

guitartango · August 2020

this post will be closed soon....

Kilgore · August 2020

Emp_Fab said:

Bridgehouse said:

Emp_Fab said:

Bridgehouse said:

Six pages in, and plenty of comments about how it’s a shame, how we should have a forum that can’t be seen on google, how we should have a forum with no moderation, how the changes will mean an increased mod workload, etc etc etc

But hardly any comments on how the membership collectively could address the issue that caused this in the first place.

Therein lies the problem.

That's like asking the general public to collectively behave so the police don't need to exist!

Attempting to lightly moderate the Wild West is where the problem lies - in my opinion.

Are you suggesting a more iron-rod style of moderation?

Yes. It's what I wanted when I was a mod. I've always felt that you can't expect people to comply with vague rules that are open to interpretation - e.g. "don't be a dick". It becomes an impossible task for the moderators.

Either have a free-for-all or a dictator style approach. Trying to sit on the fence and please everyone is a rod for your own backs.

You can't deny that it's been inconsistent in BCD in terms of modmin approach recently. I believe that's because you have several mods, each with their own interpretation of vague rules albeit written with the best of intentions.

If boundaries are not crystal-clear in their definition, you can't expect everyone to see where they are.

I think the "Don't be dick" works well. It put's the onus on you. Before pressing Post Comment, pause, ask yourself "am I being a dick", if the answer is yes, you're probably right. You won't always get it right, but it's a good rule of thumb.

We're supposed to be grown ups. We should know this stuff.

tone1 · August 2020

BCD reminded me of having a lock in at a pub...not for the faint hearted but sometimes served a purpose and sometimes left you wishing you’d left at last orders....

stickyfiddle · August 2020

Genuine question - would having more mods help?

I think the way the mods here close, discus, take action and reopen threads is a really good mature approach compared to most forums where any rule breaking gets you an insta-ban from most mods, and should be continued if at all possible.

So I don't think more people having an opinion on those in eternal "behind the scenes" debates would necessarily help, but perhaps a few junior-level "classifieds mods" who could take some of the strain from the classified-related "F off ur all Nazis I'll sell my fake Fender here if I want to" sort of issues, that could help spread the load a little bit if nothing else.

That in combination with an effort to flag more shit more quickly by the rest of us might be enough to help steer things in a positive direction?

Bridgehouse · August 2020

stickyfiddle said:

Genuine question - would having more mods help?

I think the way the mods here close, discus, take action and reopen threads is a really good mature approach compared to most forums where any rule breaking gets you an insta-ban from most mods, and should be continued if at all possible.

So I don't think more people having an opinion on those in eternal "behind the scenes" debates would necessarily help, but perhaps a few junior-level "classifieds mods" who could take some of the strain from the classified-related "F off ur all Nazis I'll sell my fake Fender here if I want to" sort of issues, that could help spread the load a little bit if nothing else.

That in combination with an effort to flag more shit more quickly by the rest of us might be enough to help steer things in a positive direction?

It might not seem it, but the current mods are selected for a wide range of opinions, styles, and approaches. We aren’t similar - we are very different. We disagree, we have different opinions, and we have a different approach. When we debate stuff, most sides of any story are aired and discussed and we generally make a decision based on what’s best for the forum.

More mods with opinions would probably just slow things up more.

stickyfiddle · August 2020

Bridgehouse said:

stickyfiddle said:

Genuine question - would having more mods help?

I think the way the mods here close, discus, take action and reopen threads is a really good mature approach compared to most forums where any rule breaking gets you an insta-ban from most mods, and should be continued if at all possible.

So I don't think more people having an opinion on those in eternal "behind the scenes" debates would necessarily help, but perhaps a few junior-level "classifieds mods" who could take some of the strain from the classified-related "F off ur all Nazis I'll sell my fake Fender here if I want to" sort of issues, that could help spread the load a little bit if nothing else.

That in combination with an effort to flag more shit more quickly by the rest of us might be enough to help steer things in a positive direction?

It might not seem it, but the current mods are selected for a wide range of opinions, styles, and approaches. We aren’t similar - we are very different. We disagree, we have different opinions, and we have a different approach. When we debate stuff, most sides of any story are aired and discussed and we generally make a decision based on what’s best for the forum.

More mods with opinions would probably just slow things up more.

Yes, I totally agree - that's why I wonder if another class of mod might be beneficial (that's assuming it's technically possible, obviously). Just to help nuking the shit in the classifieds but not get involved in the big stuff that needs more conversation; the intent would be just to lighten the load for you guys so it becomes less of a burden on your time.

I know all too well from my work life that more voices just means slower decisions in most cases, so I definitely wouldn't advocate for more people being involved in those bigger conversations that warrant debate and discussion.

octatonic · August 2020

What we need are rockers.

ewal · August 2020

This forum navel gazes more than any other forum I know. A section of the forum has been removed. Ok. Move on.

octatonic · August 2020

Yes I think we've inspected our own bottoms enough for a lifetime now.

digitalscream · August 2020

Emp_Fab said:

Bridgehouse said:

Emp_Fab said:

Bridgehouse said:

Six pages in, and plenty of comments about how it’s a shame, how we should have a forum that can’t be seen on google, how we should have a forum with no moderation, how the changes will mean an increased mod workload, etc etc etc

But hardly any comments on how the membership collectively could address the issue that caused this in the first place.

Therein lies the problem.

That's like asking the general public to collectively behave so the police don't need to exist!

Attempting to lightly moderate the Wild West is where the problem lies - in my opinion.

Are you suggesting a more iron-rod style of moderation?

Yes. It's what I wanted when I was a mod. I've always felt that you can't expect people to comply with vague rules that are open to interpretation - e.g. "don't be a dick". It becomes an impossible task for the moderators.

Either have a free-for-all or a dictator style approach. Trying to sit on the fence and please everyone is a rod for your own backs.

You can't deny that it's been inconsistent in BCD in terms of modmin approach recently. I believe that's because you have several mods, each with their own interpretation of vague rules albeit written with the best of intentions.

If boundaries are not crystal-clear in their definition, you can't expect everyone to see where they are.

And yet, since you stopped being a mod, you've repeatedly tried to test the patience of the moderation team, ignored clear requests to cease certain types of behaviour, and still been the beneficiary of quite a bit of leeway given because you seemed to be having a tough time.

That's why we do it that way. Because we realise that people can have shitty times in their lives and should be helped as much as is possible. That's what "community" is about, and I'm intensely confused as to why so many here fail to get it.

Take this latest escapade. You deliberately created that thread to illustrate the point that you didn't think the original thread should be there. You even said you were going to do it in that thread. The original thread was a genuine question - the issue of "good taste" notwithstanding - but yours was a deliberate move, and it was standing on the back of weeks of needling the modmin team about inconsistency despite you knowing full damn well all of the above, yet feigning ignorance to play to the gallery.

If we'd decided to give you what you wanted - a strict, no-exceptions approach to moderation - I can think of at least three occasions when you'd have been permanently banned, no questions asked.

Yes, this approach takes more time and patience to deal with. All we ask from people is that they work with us rather than against us, in return for us taking personal circumstances into account and applying a bit of humanity.

Folk who don't? That's what rule #1 is about.

VimFuego · August 2020

octatonic said:

Yes I think we've inspected our own bottoms enough for a lifetime now.

isn't that what caused the sub forum to be shut down?

WiresDreamDisasters · August 2020

Bridgehouse said:

But hardly any comments on how the membership collectively could address the issue that caused this in the first place.

Therein lies the problem.

Okay then - these apply to me just as much as anyone else!

1. Stop carrying grudges that are 5+ years old. Intermusic is gone. Musicradar is gone. Any offence you feel from week to week because someone laughed at you or made light of something you didn't want them to. Let it go.

2. Stop putting meaning onto the things people say. Instead, ask them what they mean if you don't understand, cannot fathom their viewpoint, or otherwise think they are an idiot. Maybe they have something to teach you.

3. Don't phone up shops and abuse staff. Don't threaten other members jobs. Don't think that just because you post on this forum that you deserve discounts and loyalty rewards.

4. Don't do a drive by "fuck you" and then chortle to yourself in the form of LOL-stalking. Tackle things you find objectionable proactively.

5. Don't accuse other members of being racist, xenophobic, or any other -ism you can conjure up, without 100% objective proof. If they've just said something you found was too coarse or off the mark, that doesn't give you the right to dehumanize them.

6. Reach out to members who don't appear to being having the best time of it. Support people as best you can and help the collective mental health of the forum improve.

7. Post more in the on-topic sections. Post any old inane bable as long as it's relevant to the particular sub-forum. It might spark an interesting conversation.

8. Use smilies more. They indicate your mood and give a pointer on how to read someone's post, or how you read someone's post. A lot of the disagreements and frustration people have towards one another is very often crossed wires.

9. Don't assume you know somebody and their personality just because you've interacted with them online for a number of years. People change, and change is gradual.

10. Don't be a vagina. Teased or otherwise. Exchange for don't be a dick rule if that makes you more comfortable.

Bridgehouse · August 2020

digitalscream said:

Emp_Fab said:

Bridgehouse said:

Emp_Fab said:

Bridgehouse said:

Six pages in, and plenty of comments about how it’s a shame, how we should have a forum that can’t be seen on google, how we should have a forum with no moderation, how the changes will mean an increased mod workload, etc etc etc

But hardly any comments on how the membership collectively could address the issue that caused this in the first place.

Therein lies the problem.

That's like asking the general public to collectively behave so the police don't need to exist!

Attempting to lightly moderate the Wild West is where the problem lies - in my opinion.

Are you suggesting a more iron-rod style of moderation?

Yes. It's what I wanted when I was a mod. I've always felt that you can't expect people to comply with vague rules that are open to interpretation - e.g. "don't be a dick". It becomes an impossible task for the moderators.

Either have a free-for-all or a dictator style approach. Trying to sit on the fence and please everyone is a rod for your own backs.

You can't deny that it's been inconsistent in BCD in terms of modmin approach recently. I believe that's because you have several mods, each with their own interpretation of vague rules albeit written with the best of intentions.

If boundaries are not crystal-clear in their definition, you can't expect everyone to see where they are.

And yet, since you stopped being a mod, you've repeatedly tried to test the patience of the moderation team, ignored clear requests to cease certain types of behaviour, and still been the beneficiary of quite a bit of leeway given because you seemed to be having a tough time.

That's why we do it that way. Because we realise that people can have shitty times in their lives and should be helped as much as is possible. That's what "community" is about, and I'm intensely confused as to why so many here fail to get it.

Take this latest escapade. You deliberately created that thread to illustrate the point that you didn't think the original thread should be there. You even said you were going to do it in that thread. The original thread was a genuine question - the issue of "good taste" notwithstanding - but yours was a deliberate move, and it was standing on the back of weeks of needling the modmin team about inconsistency despite you knowing full damn well all of the above, yet feigning ignorance to play to the gallery.

If we'd decided to give you what you wanted - a strict, no-exceptions approach to moderation - I can think of at least three occasions when you'd have been permanently banned, no questions asked.

Yes, this approach takes more time and patience to deal with. All we ask from people is that they work with us rather than against us, in return for us taking personal circumstances into account and applying a bit of humanity.

Folk who don't? That's what rule #1 is about.

^ what Lee said.

Bridgehouse · August 2020

VimFuego said:

octatonic said:

Yes I think we've inspected our own bottoms enough for a lifetime now.

isn't that what caused the sub forum to be shut down?

Nearly - but the inspection was done with an odd bodily part...

WiresDreamDisasters · August 2020

BTW - I would happily be a mod. You'd have to do a purge of the admin areas of all of the "Drew's insane years" posts I'm sure, but I'd be happy to tackle spam and rule breaking. I've run a company forum for a while know, so I have priors.

Bridgehouse · August 2020

WiresDreamDisasters said:

BTW - I would happily be a mod. You'd have to do a purge of the admin areas of all of the "Drew's insane years" posts I'm sure, but I'd be happy to tackle spam and rule breaking. I've run a company forum for a while know, so I have priors.

Mate, it would take us years to clear the admin area out of all the shit about you...

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