My CITES nightmare

p90fool

gubble said:

Now I'm all for saving the trees however not allowing a sale of something that was felled 53 years ago makes zero sense to me. Blocking this import will have zero effect on anything to do with the future preservation of endangered woods.

Well the argument against vintage ivory pieces is that although the elephants were killed years ago their continued sale keeps the desire for ivory alive. 

Guitarists are still banging on about the wonders of Brazilian rosewood even though it makes bugger all difference, so they may well have a point. 

crunchman

Wood is different from ivory though.  If you were legally allowed to sell BRW with the correct paperwork, there would be an incentive to plant the stuff in plantations.  People would do that as an investment for their grandchildren.

As it stands you would be mad to plant a BRW tree as you would probably never be allowed to chop it down and make use of the land for anything else, thus making it essentially worthless.

It's different for wild animals like elephants but for plant stuff, controlled legal trade would be a better approach long term.

I'm not sure about the people who want to completely ban the trade in old ivory.  Making it illegal to sell a 100 year old piano isn't really going to help anyone.

guitars4you

@lewism - sorry about your issues - see below as this is relevant if you can follow it - I asked APHA about such issues a few weeks ago both importing today and also with a view to bring a guitar back on the plane - Here is the reply

THE CONVENTION OF INTERNATIONAL TRADE IN ENDANGERED SPECIES OF WILD FAUNA AND FLORA (CITES)

 

EC REGULATION 338/97 & 865/2006 – IMPORT/ (RE)-EXPORT PERMIT

 

Thank you for your email query  regarding bringing back a 1957 or 1962 vintage guitar containing Brazilian Rosewood (Dalbergia nigra) and Mother-of-Pearl from the USA in your personal luggage for your private collection. Apologies for the delay in response.

 

A guitar made with Brazilian rosewood can be imported into the UK, dependent on various conditions.  If the guitar was made before the species Dalbergia nigra was listed on CITES Appendix I on 11th June 1992, then it will be given source code O for pre-Convention. This appears to apply to the guitar/s you are considering buying. You will need a US CITES Pre-Convention Certificate from US Fish and Wildlife for the (re-)export, and a UK CITES Import Permit.  Both permits/certificates should be in place before you travel with the instrument.

 

Please be aware that the advice above only applies to guitars made with Brazilian Rosewood (Dalbergia nigra) before 1992. Other criteria apply for guitars made after that date.

 

Regarding the Mother-of-Pearl, as you may be aware, Mother-of-Pearl is the white inlay of any shell. Having spoken to our scientific advisors regarding the problem of identifying which shell Mother-of-Pearl derives from, they have pointed out that under Conference Resolution 9.6, it mentions the term ‘readily recognisable part or derivative’.

This states that unless there is any documentation, mark or label that identifies the Mother-of-Pearl as being derived from a specific CITES controlled specimen, then no CITES permits will be required. I should point out that this is the UK's position so I advise to you to check with the US to check what their position is.

 

The contact details for US Fish & Wildlife can be found here: https://www.cites.org/eng/cms/index.php/component/cp/country/US

 

To apply for a UK CITES import permit for the Dalbergia nigra, please find a link to application forms and relevant guidance on our website at:

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/endangered-species-application-for-import-and-export-permit

 

There is a fee of £74.00 for processing an import permit application for plant species. Full fees guidance can be found at:

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/370422/cites-gn11.pdf

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/355265/cites-ag-ct-02.pdf

 

Once you have downloaded, completed and signed the relevant application form:

 

Either:

Step 1 - Scan the form

or

Step 2 - In place of a 'wet' signature, you (‘the applicant’) need to insert the phrase “I am the owner of the email account below and I am also the applicant” into Box 23 of the permit application form.

 

Step 3 - You then need to enter your email address either in the signature box or box 23. This is to ensure the legality of the electronic ‘signature’.

 

Step 4 - Email applications (scanned or with electronic signature) and supporting documentation MUST then be emailed to: wildlife.licensing@apha.gsi.gov.uk

 

To pay by credit/debit card, please contact our Credit Card Payment Line on 01633 631800. Explain that you want to pay for a CITES fee of £74.00. Once you have done this, they will notify the Bristol office that payment has been received, quoting your credit card transaction number. Once we have received the fee, we will link this up with your email application and forward it for processing.

 

Alternatively, you can post your application to us at the address below with a cheque payable to APHA.

 

We aim to process all applications in 15 working days.

gubble

Serious question.....

If you're a professional touring guitarist (Jo Bo springs to mind) and you want to bring say 4 vintage les paul's with you on a world tour. How does this affect things?

lewism

There are guidelines for touring musicians etc. available on the APHA website, so I think they’re ok provided the permits are in place for the individual instruments. I didn’t read it too deeply though as, sadly, it’s not likely to affect me.

guitars4you

lewism said:

Clarification over the phone: EU rules prohibit the commercial import (i.e. buying from a commercial entity) of Brazilian rosewood into the EU unless it’s already been imported at some point or, possibly (and it’s subject to interpretation) if it predates 1947. The only way to do it is go over there, collect it and bring it back in as a personal import! Same permit at the US end, would have to apply for a personal permit to bring it back in. My usual good mood is slightly dented.

This is what makes  CITES a total farce regarding used products - to a large degree I can understand them trying to limit the supply of new wood - But regarding used guitars the damage to the world has already been done when they cut down the tree - That piece of wood can't be planted in a rain forest today, so let's just get on with it and remember no such ruling existed back in the day this guitar was made

SO IT IS ILLEGAL TO IMPORT IT VIA A COURIER
BUT IT IS LEGAL TO BRING IT BACK ON A PLANE WITH APPROPRIATE DOCUMENTATION

So the same guitar with Brz rosewood can be legal or illegal with option denied or supplied by the same agency, it is just a case of did you personally bring it into the country or UPS - How the f*ck does that save or help the planet - sheer stupidity

I know there is talk between APHA, CITES, Government and the music trade about such issues and how it is 'hurting' the music trade regarding used musical instruments and how such issues as this are farcical - I dare say nothing will be resolved quickly, but it is been looked - This applies to both Brz and Indian rosewood - so watch this space

guitars4you

lewism said:

crunchman said:

My understanding is that once you bring it back as a personal possession that you aren't then allowed to sell it again.

You might be right, I only really sought clarification on the issue at hand. It does seem to almost encourage flying over with an empty case and sneaking something back in. So much for being honest and doing things the right way!

let me know how you get on with this option as I'm also led to believe this to be the case

thebreeze

lewism said:

crunchman said:

My understanding is that once you bring it back as a personal possession that you aren't then allowed to sell it again.

You might be right, I only really sought clarification on the issue at hand. It does seem to almost encourage flying over with an empty case and sneaking something back in. So much for being honest and doing things the right way!

Whatever the whys and wherefores of Brazilian rosewood, I think this ^ is the sadness.  Bureaucracy at it's worst and it's usually always bad imo - but their approach is going cause many worse problems.  I mean encouraging everyone to take transatlantic flights isn't exactly brilliant for the environment. You have my sympathy.

lewism

@guitars4you  thanks for that, I’ll give it a proper read shortly. The chap I spoke to at APHA gave some advice (or at least what he could without being seen to be giving “official advice”). He did seem slightly exasperated by it in a “our hands are tied” kind of way and it seems like this is happening to a few people. It’s the 1992 date that seems to have thrown a spanner in the works as it’s quoted a lot in these sort of discussions, suggesting that there exemptions for pre treaty guitars - indeed it seems there are, everywhere except the EU. He’s forwarding me some links to a website that explains the position more, I’ll post them when I receive them.

guitars4you

lewism said:

@guitars4you  thanks for that, I’ll give it a proper read shortly. The chap I spoke to at APHA gave some advice (or at least what he could without being seen to be giving “official advice”). He did seem slightly exasperated by it in a “our hands are tied” kind of way and it seems like this is happening to a few people. It’s the 1992 date that seems to have thrown a spanner in the works as it’s quoted a lot in these sort of discussions, suggesting that there exemptions for pre treaty guitars - indeed it seems there are, everywhere except the EU. He’s forwarding me some links to a website that explains the position more, I’ll post them when I receive them.

to be fair to APHA - they don't create the rulings and neither do the government - they sign up to the CITES program and APHA have to uphold such agreements on behalf of our leaders - APHA have to look at all imports of wood, plants and animal life (both legal and illegal)

Who runs APHA then we don't really know but 007 is looking into it with M

Whitecat

thebreeze said:

lewism said:

crunchman said:

My understanding is that once you bring it back as a personal possession that you aren't then allowed to sell it again.

You might be right, I only really sought clarification on the issue at hand. It does seem to almost encourage flying over with an empty case and sneaking something back in. So much for being honest and doing things the right way!

Whatever the whys and wherefores of Brazilian rosewood, I think this ^ is the sadness.  Bureaucracy at it's worst and it's usually always bad imo - but their approach is going cause many worse problems.  I mean encouraging everyone to take transatlantic flights isn't exactly brilliant for the environment. You have my sympathy.

I think their thinking is that you couldn't mass import tonnes of it when it's hand-carried... you might be able to have a couple guitars, max in most cases unless you're paying some serious excess baggage fees and have people to assist you. Whereas couriers can move containers full of it at once... and therefore more scrutiny required.

lewism

thebreeze said:

lewism said:

crunchman said:

My understanding is that once you bring it back as a personal possession that you aren't then allowed to sell it again.

You might be right, I only really sought clarification on the issue at hand. It does seem to almost encourage flying over with an empty case and sneaking something back in. So much for being honest and doing things the right way!

Whatever the whys and wherefores of Brazilian rosewood, I think this ^ is the sadness.  Bureaucracy at it's worst and it's usually always bad imo - but their approach is going cause many worse problems.  I mean encouraging everyone to take transatlantic flights isn't exactly brilliant for the environment. You have my sympathy.

Cheers, but I realize it’s very much a first world problem and I certainly don’t want to come across as “waaah, I can’t have what I want”.  Regarding the ivory issue raised earlier, I totally get that and understand the parallels. In the Grocer (a food industry trade mag) there was a letter recently complaining about the forthcoming ban on trade in antique worked ivory stating that, in their opinion, the only sensible solution was to start farming elephants for ivory - I’m not on that side of the fence! A return to NY with BA only costs a little more than what it was going to cost to ship though.......

lewism

guitars4you said:

lewism said:

@guitars4you  thanks for that, I’ll give it a proper read shortly. The chap I spoke to at APHA gave some advice (or at least what he could without being seen to be giving “official advice”). He did seem slightly exasperated by it in a “our hands are tied” kind of way and it seems like this is happening to a few people. It’s the 1992 date that seems to have thrown a spanner in the works as it’s quoted a lot in these sort of discussions, suggesting that there exemptions for pre treaty guitars - indeed it seems there are, everywhere except the EU. He’s forwarding me some links to a website that explains the position more, I’ll post them when I receive them.

to be fair to APHA - they don't create the rulings and neither do the government - they sign up to the CITES program and APHA have to uphold such agreements on behalf of our leaders - APHA have to look at all imports of wood, plants and animal life (both legal and illegal)

Who runs APHA then we don't really know but 007 is looking into it with M

Totally get that. It’s also why I had a reasonable conversation with the chap on the phone rather than ranting & raving. APHA are, effectively, enforcing EU legislation where the EU have decided to go above and beyond the CITES requirements. Normally, I’d view that as quite a noble thing to do!

StuartMac290

Hang on, have I missed something? It says on the form Brazilian Rosewood cannot be imported to the EU "for primarily commercial purposes". Can't you just say it's for personal use and you're not selling it?

thebreeze

So what happens now?  I’m curious (of course) about what guitar it is. Will we only find out if it comes through?  Endings are always key in novels I think.

Strat54

What happens post Brexit?

crunchman

Strat54 said:

What happens post Brexit?

Depends if we stay in the Customs Union.  If we do then we are probably stuck with the ridiculous EU rules that go above and beyond CITES.  We may be stuck with them anyway.  Can't see fixing it as the highest priority for the government.

Whitecat

crunchman said:

Strat54 said:

What happens post Brexit?

Depends if we stay in the Customs Union.  If we do then we are probably stuck with the ridiculous EU rules that go above and beyond CITES.  We may be stuck with them anyway.  Can't see fixing it as the highest priority for the government.

Which rules “go above and beyond CITES”?

mart

lewism said:

Back to the thrilling action.  I downloaded the form (FED0172) and the guidance notes from the APHA website.  ...

Hang on, have I got this right: if you buy a rosewood guitar from a shop outside the EU then YOU have to apply for a permit to import it? I guess I’d always assumed that it was the shop’s responsibility to get a permit, not the seller’s.

Would that include buying a new guitar with rosewood fingerboard?

crunchman

Whitecat said:

crunchman said:

Strat54 said:

What happens post Brexit?

Depends if we stay in the Customs Union.  If we do then we are probably stuck with the ridiculous EU rules that go above and beyond CITES.  We may be stuck with them anyway.  Can't see fixing it as the highest priority for the government.

Which rules “go above and beyond CITES”?

The fact that you can't sell pre 1992 Brazilian Rosewood.  Even though BRW didn't go on the CITES list until 1992, and the rest of the world uses 1992 as the cut off, the EU uses the same 1947 date that is used for ivory.