Axe_FX II Rigs, or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love Digital Modelling.

Roland

Clarky said:

... maybe that's why they work.. cos they're a bit rough and ready..

that's certainly my experience. What sounds good in isolation, or in recording, is often too tame in context. What sounds good in recording can be too sweet and lifeless in a live situation. i remember the first time I heard someone playing an early Line 6. In isolation there was this soaring lead sound on the point of feedback, but put the band around it and he might as well have been playing a sine wave.

EQ is the obvious culprit, but not the only one. Compression can also affect it, I've got lead sounds which are too loud at rehearsal, compared with rhythm settings, but exactly what's needed at higher volume. [/teaching grandmother to suck eggs mode]

octatonic

Drew- what speakers were you using?

Also, what I notice about the Axe FX is you have to build the presets in situ- in your case with the band around you.

When I am recording I tweak presets with the rest of the track playing.

I also do this with a regular guitar amp.

My practice at home presets are completely different to those.

Drew_TNBD

V30's. Egnater Tourmaster cab. 4x12. The thing is built like a brick shithouse. It's basically Egnaters version of the Rectifier 4x12 cab.

I tried dialing in a preset there, and it just lacked everything I like about valve amps. I will give it another go, perhaps into the return of the amp again.

octatonic

Perhaps the FX8 with your Diezel is the way to go for live, then?

Drew_TNBD

Perhaps... but there again... I prefer this TC Electronic Flashback X4 to the delay block in the Axe. It's just more musical to me, more user friendly, easier to pull what I want from it. I'd almost convinced myself that it didn't matter... but being able to turn a few knobs instead of going through page after page is way preferable for me.

Clarky

Drew_fx said:

V30's. Egnater Tourmaster cab. 4x12. The thing is built like a brick shithouse. It's basically Egnaters version of the Rectifier 4x12 cab.

I tried dialing in a preset there, and it just lacked everything I like about valve amps. I will give it another go, perhaps into the return of the amp again.

do you have recordings of your band that you can pop into an iPOD [or similar]??

if you think back to when we were in the studio, we were talking about creating live tones.. I crate my 'studio' presets that have all the functionality and tone types I need to practice.. so my practice experience [including how all the controller stuff works] is that same as for live.. when I have the set list, I copy all my studio presets so I can create 'live' versions. I then pop all the songs for the live set into my iPOD, hire a studio, take my whole rig and start dialling in..

first job is just to get the tones through my backline sounding / feeling good at volume...

then the iPOD gets jacked into the PA and I play along with the set.. the tweaks you need often become quite clear.. EQ, gain, gating, levels / wet-dry mix of ambients, soloing tone boost levels etc..

when this is done, I play the set from start to end to verify that everything works properly and hits the spot...

when I get with the band for rehearsal, I may need to make a few more corrections, but these are generally very small / quick / easy ones..

from that point on, my config is essentially 'locked down' and never gets touched.

the reason I do this is because you can piss away too much time dialling in, in a reheasal studio with the band and so you can end up bushwhacking the purpose of the rehearsal.. and with the DC Band, we only have a single rehearsal before we tour, so pissing that away tweaking presets is a major no no...

I reckon you could most likely get the Axe working right for you provided you set it up under the right conditions..

Si_

I'm sure you'll get it sounding fantastic in the end (assuming you keep it).. but this all goes back to my multiple experiences with the AxeFx.. you need to spend a LONG TIME getting it working right and sounding like a proper amp in a band mix, tweaking this, resetting that, trying this..

.. Or, just use your valve amp which sounds great out of the box without all this farting on and hours and hours of tweaking. Why spend weeks and weeks of time and effort to get it to sound like the thing you have sitting next to it already.. just use the Diezel, job done.

It's the same with the Flashback X4, why spend ages tweaking AxeFx delay settings when the Flashback does what you want and sounds better with ZERO tweaking. 

 

Drew_TNBD

I don't think dialing in tones to recordings of the band is a good idea. We sound very different 'live' to how we sound on the record. It needed to be dialed in to the band.

I have to say, after last night... I am kind of in agreement with Si_  ... I'm sure the Axe can get there eventually. But I just don't know why I would want to bother. My Diezel rig sounds bloody fantastic.

Si_

I've been down this route so many times... Why try to emulate what you already have.. just use what you have..

I can see how it works for people wanting the versatility and flexibility of multiple amps, set-ups and FXs, but if you know what you want, I don't see the point. 

If your Diezel rig sounds exactly like what you want, then why try to emulate it with a digital replacement that no matter how good the firmware gets, is NEVER going to be a perfect match or IMHO sound as good as a real valve amp. 

Drew_TNBD

I don't really know what the culprit was. It was loud, but lacked balls. I had poweramps enabled, I used the presets I dialed in with Clarky. I tried dialing in just an amp model in a new preset. Again, it was loud. I did not struggle for volume at all. But I wasn't getting low-end trouser flapping clarity, and the high-end was distracting.

What I would say is that we play a *lot* louder than the levels we had in the studio Clarky; I'm wondering if that's it. Whether it was just too loud somewhere along the signal path, and the setup couldn't handle it and just farted out.

Clarky

I couldn't get away with playing much louder than we did in the studio in Reading.. the sound guys generally don't allow it.. in the studio everythnig was a 1/2 way.. remember when I pushed it to 2/3 it got pretty loud.. that's the absolute upper limit the sound eng's would allow because and more than that and they lose control over the mix out front..

may sound counter intuitive, but did the Axe presets have lots of low end dialled in? cos too much of that can kill the tone.. for better depth, rather than large boosts below 250Hz and a handfull of the depth control, a good cut in either the 250 or 500 bands works better..

at the end of the day, an Axe is not a valve amp and never will be.. it can only emulate them.. and sure it does a pretty good job, but I'm not sure if it'll ever be 100% the same.. but then I never really think about the Axe in those terms..

the questiion is, can it be made to sound amazing?? and the answer is yes.. but like Si points out, it's not a 5 minute job.. however, once you've nailled it, it'll remain the same and be consistent.. just power up and play.. job done..

although the band's studio sound and live sounds are different [same with me and the DC Band / Civilians etc], you are still dialling in with respect to an occupied frequency spectrum.. and you have a good idea too of the relative levels you need for your various tones.. dialing in at home nails the principle tone and functionality.. that gets you 70% there.. dialing in over a backing track gets you to within 5-10% of where you need to be... the final adjustments are with the band.. but these are generally small / quick ones..

given that it's a costly bit of gear.. I'd personally try noodling with it more for a while to see if you can hit onthe magic formula.. and then if it still don't cut it for you, sell it.. what you do know though is that if you can get the tone you're looking for, the Axe is also going to make lots of other cool tones available to you [in your case, the ambients]..

thoughts:

- try using two amb blocks and pan them hard.. Das Metall one side and somethnig like the 5150 or Dual Rec the other.. personally I think this really makes a difference

- try 'lo-fi' settings on your delay.. squeeze it's freq range and distort it a little

Drew_TNBD

Good or bad, we play loud. We don't get mic'd up in most places we play, we let the amps do their job.

octatonic

Drew_fx said:

Good or bad, we play loud. We don't get mic'd up in most places we play, we let the amps do their job.

A tube power amp like a Fryette 2:50:2 might fix that.

You won't be able to turn it up full unless you a re playing stadiums but it definitely responds in an ampy way.

EditL I forgot you had bad dealing with Fryette.

Clarky

ahh of course... I keep forgetting that the nature of places the band plays in makes quite a difference.. everywhere I play I get mic'd..

here's a thought though.. even if you're playing in a small place, it's still a good thing to mic the band completely so you all go through the PA.. even if it's simply to make the band louder.. cos when you all go through the PA, it helps glue the band's tones together.. it adds a nice coat of polish on the band's combined voice..

Deijavoo

You change your sig more often than I change my underpants. 

Drew_TNBD

You dirty bugger.

Deijavoo

Totally off topic.

My mate, drummer in a band I believe you will know.

Anyhow, crashing on some promoter's floor, the following morning he woke up and asked for some toilet paper. Fearing that this gentleman had shat himself the promoter asked why he needed it as soon as he woke up. Turned out he needed a shit in the middle of the night, so he went and there was no paper so he just went back to bed shitty arse loyal. Slept like a baby by all accounts.

I couldn't sleep if I had to do that but I also think I would've figured out another way to clean my arse.

Anyways.......

octatonic

I fear you just gave Drew a woody.

Drew_TNBD

Deijavoo said:

Totally off topic.

My mate, drummer in a band I believe you will know.

Anyhow, crashing on some promoter's floor, the following morning he woke up and asked for some toilet paper. Fearing that this gentleman had shat himself the promoter asked why he needed it as soon as he woke up. Turned out he needed a shit in the middle of the night, so he went and there was no paper so he just went back to bed shitty arse loyal. Slept like a baby by all accounts.

I couldn't sleep if I had to do that but I also think I would've figured out another way to clean my arse.

Anyways.......

I would've grabbed a tea towel or used one of my socks.

Which band?

Deijavoo

*********