Axe_FX II Rigs, or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love Digital Modelling.

paulmapp8306

I didnt think an amp reset was required unless stated in the notes?  or do you just like to start from scratch.

guitarfishbay

It isn't always necessary but it depends on if the amp changed. The new defaults are likely different - especially the speaker page. The Recto Red Moderns now sound better than before IMO.

paulmapp8306

See, Im loath to default amps, as I often change them - especially the speaker page lol.

Ill try and default one tomorrow, but not save it.

Clarky

the settings that really matter to me are the tones stack ones, and the the amp: eq page ones

I made notes of the eq page settings just in case..

then did the reset via the utility page and everything I care about remained the same..

even the MV: Post PI settings in the MIIC and JCM800 that I hot rodded..

guitarfishbay

I like the lower gain Satriani JVM channels.  I'm finding them easier to get sounding good than the normal JVM model, which I also quite like anyway.

ML SoundLabs has a 2x12 pack in beta that I'm interested to check out.  Mesa 2x12 and Orange 2x12.  I've got to say I am liking that there are more 2x12 cab packs out there these days.

paulmapp8306

Ha - the Satriani JM, lead orange is almost EXACTLY the same in sound and feel as my quite well tweeked Fryette M patch I have been using for about 3 years......

paulmapp8306

Feel a bit of a traitor - not to Fractal.....To Matrix.  After years of using their Amps, and being a small part of the development, I have switched.  

After 3 visits to the Nottingham Amp Fests, where there are a selection of truly world class amps, the AFX rig sounded a little flat in comparison.  Not totally surprised as they are top notch amps. The main issue was too round a bottom end with a slight lack of definition/seperation/transparency int he low mids.

WEll, I went to Peach to try a few amps (as I have a Machete as a valve reference/pick up and go solution but want a top end single Chanel amp for just "me" times) and had to use a Fryette Power Station to attenuate the Friedman Buxom Betty.  It did such a good job of transparently re-amping the Friedman, that I returned two days later with my AFX rig - just to A/B with the Matrix.

The Matrix is now relegated to backup.  The power station put the "clunk" back in the low end rather than a "thump" and brought the transparency to those low mids.

I am re-discovering several amp sims in the AFX, and am in love all over again...

Sorry Matrix, but I may come back for a light weight cab.....

Handsome_Chris

So you're using a Fryette Power Station as your power amp?

paulmapp8306

Yes.

I have a couple of theories - probably nowhere near the mark.

Back when I had the GT800 and the VHT 2/50/2 I got the two very close.  There was a smidge in it but the weight saving was worth

it.  This was back in my old AFX Standard days.

Over the intervening years, the modelling has got better, with the AFX2 then Quantum.  In theory that should make a valve power amp even more redundant, but I think actually the valve amp is bringing out the detail in the models that wasnt there in the old days, and the Matix isnt doing that as well - so the difference has increased rather than decreasing. 

Secondly, the 2/50/2 while being fairly flat by guitar power amp standards, wasnt flat.  The Power Stations 50w Pwer stage IS flat.  It has to be as its re-amping an attenuated signal from a real amp.  If it wasnt flat, it would colour/change the  original amps tone and it doesnt.  This makes it better suited to modelling than the old 2/50/2.  

Ultimately, it was hard to tell the difference between the PS and Matrix on clean strummed chords.  Playing clean single mote runs - digging in and you could start to hear the definition and clunk in the lows.   The more gain you add, the more the difference comes through.  Playing a Friedman BE patch - next to a real Friendam BE, and there was a difference using the Matrix - using the Power station you couldnt.  Even the sales staff at peach came in saying "how do you like that real Friedman" only for me to say - its not hte real one, its the AFX through the PS.  They thought Id switched from the AFX/Matrix to the Friedman - when Id gone AFX/Matrix to AFX/PS.

Fiftyshadesofjay

I know the feeling. Different gear to you, but I was using a powered Kemper for a bit and while it did sound good and was plenty loud, when you're up against another guitarist with a decent valve amp it just didn't cut it. Nowhere near the same thump or authority. 

I've now gone to either running it completely direct for function stuff or for originals stuff I use it through the effects return of my EVH head. I'm sure it's not very neutral or accurate this way, but it sounds killer so who cares!

John_P

Paul,  when you're using power amp (especially a valve one)  are you turning down the sag to take the modelled power amp out of the preset or leaving it in? 

paulmapp8306

Leaving it on.  The PS is flat response, and as long as you keep it within its (substantial) headroom its all good.  

Having the PS on half way - so all 3 knobs at noon, gives a neutral freq, and with the AFX up full, and amp/patches on 0 db, I get the same clean volume as my Machete set clean but pretty max'd.  Thats what Id expect.

Winding the PS up further and your going to start getting to its limits, and will to crunch which I dont want.  Its the same way I ran the old 2/50/2.  Keep it within clean limits.

The only difference between this and a real amps power stage, or typical valve power amp is that the PS amp section is designed top be flat.

There are some people buying it as a valve power amp for a turntable (real records....).  Thats how flat  

paulmapp8306

Ha.  Just done a test.  The PS uses 6L6s - so I ran my clean (on the edge of breakup) delux patch and A/B'd the following (Master is full up on the amp block)

1.  AFX patch with PA modelling ON, PS set to half volume (noon) , edge and depth on noon.

2.  AFX patch with PA modelling OFF.  PS set to FULL volume, edge and depth to FULL.

Result.  Pretty much identical.  Very slightly warmer with the PA sims off, slightly more sparkle with them on.  AFX was around half volume (with patches at 0db)

Tried the same test with the same amp, but with the gain up on the sim.  Same difference tonally - BUT the amount of breakup with the sims off and PS up full was nowhere near as much as with the PA sims on, so at these levels the PS amp is still pretty clean, certainly not driving as hard as the simulated power section.

Pushing the out signal from the AFX further and keeping the PS on full everything, and the clean tone does start to break up - BUT Im at +8db on the patch level and the AFX is max'd out, and its DEAFENING.....  Turning my Machete on, and up full clean is nowhere near as loud.

So - the PS stays clean (breakup wise) even max'd until the input signal - and corresponding volume is stupidly high.  There is NO problem using the PS with sims on, at gig volumes, without getting any valve compression/breakup.

John_P

Thanks,  that's pretty interesting.      Quick tests at home volumes with my little bogner mojado bypassing the preamp and it's obvious when sag is off,  into a fender twin it's a bit more subtle.   At the moment I'm not choosing one way to right or wrong, just a different option and I quite like the feel with sag on. I'll see what it's like in full roar over the weekend.

guitarfishbay

I won't lie - I'm happy with my GT1000 but I am tempted to try the Fryette. I like the addition of depth/pres controls.

paulmapp8306

I think it depends what the master is set to on the amp sim.  If your using a master volume amp, and the master is set 4 ish (default on most) then the sag while there, isnt adding too much - so a decent sized real amp (such as the twin) should yield a pretty similar result.

If however, your using a non master volume sim - and your running at 10 master (again default), then the sag is much more evident, especially with the input gain high to make the sim crunch.  So, to get the same feel/sound you would have to drive the real amps power section hard.  If you cant do that for vol reasons, then the result isnt going to be anywhere near as nice.

again though - if you CAN and DO run the real amps power section hard - so blinkin loud with a twin but much more manageable with a small power section like the Mojado and your going to get two issues.  Patches with high master will sound much better with the sag OFF as the real small power stage will be doing the same thing - leaving it on with sound not good as your effectively getting two crunching power stages.  HOWEVER, a patch that uses low master volume isnt going to be clean as it should be through the wound up real amp.,

These are reasons why when I choose a real power amp (valve), I choose one with big enough headroom that Im not going to drive the power stage into crunch.  The 2/50/2 was on the edge for that at gig levels.  A 2/90/2 would have been better.  The Power Station, being designed for a clean 50W output is actually better.  Add to that its a neutral amp re freq response (having to be by its remit in the attenuating mode - and eminantly achievable with correct engineering despite what some say - after all top end Hi-Fi amps are valve and flat.  ITs all about design and headroom), and it just seems to work really well.

I wish I hadnt sat on the fence for so long.  Could have been running one months ago....

John_P

Thanks - that makes a lot of sense and so far the models I'm running aren't that high on the master,   evh red, hbe etc  so that'll be why the effect is more subtle that I expected. 

paulmapp8306

When comparing the AFX/Matrix to real amps - how good/accurate it sounds depends on the amps your  referencing and their quality

Stock production Fenders, a Mesa Express, stock modern marshalls etc and the AFX/Matrix combo sounds pretty close.  Ditto for things like Egnators and most Blackstars and the like.

I only started to notice the difference really - or it only became apparent - and the Nottingham Amp fest Days.  Bare in mind the point of these days is to wind amps up - probably louder than most gigs.  The amps I have been comparing the rig to - and trying to "clone" in some cases (which isnt easy as the models arnt in the AFX - some other models from the same manufacturers are, but not the same models), were:

Redplate (forget which model)

Bad Cat Cub (only the hot cat is in the AFX)

Two Rock Studio Pro 22 (the AFX model is the Jet 35)

Dr Z Maz 18 (the MAZ 38 is in the AFX)

DR z EZG

Ceriatone ODS

Plus others...

These are pretty high quality amps, and mostly single channel ones.  The purity of the circuits and the quality of the build does shine, and the AFX/Matrix does fall short.

Hopefully Ill get to the next day in April, and try again with the Power Station.  It will certainly close the gap - as the things we struggles with when cloning are the things the PS puts right.  Just how close it brings the rig is to be seen.  

paulmapp8306

Played around today. Did some research on the Friedman Buxom Betty as I loved is to much at PEach.  ITs a blackface pre, coupled to a JTM45 Power stage essentially. So I did just that - Twin, changing the tonestack to a JTM45 and the valves to EL34s.

Had to lower the master to 7.5, and the input trim to 0.6 as it was breaking up at 0.5.... The real amp starts to break up at around 3.

Love the result.  With an RTC booster and Zen Master as optional drives, and with 2 gain stages (4.1 for edge of breakup and 8 for full on saturation).  Cant tell how close to the real thing it is obviously, as Its not been wound up flat out - and I dont have the amp in my home (unfortunately), but Im REALLY Happy with the sound its making.

Anyone wanting to try the patch - its on the Fractal Forum:

http://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/buxom-betty-attempt.111040/

read the notes first though.

  

paulmapp8306

Here we go again. Q2.01 with pre and power tube modelling improvements along with inter valve interactions.