Axe_FX II Rigs, or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love Digital Modelling.

guitarfishbay

I always record no cab from the Axe and apply it in Logic. I pick the cab I intend to use in advance, but I might use a slightly different position come mix time (so SM57 03 instead of SM57 04 for example). Works well for me as a workflow. Potentially saves a lot of time vs a full reamp.

Clarky

I'm gonna try this when I start reamping the guitars..

I already have a wonderful pair of tones for this piece, so if I can't improve on it with you're suggesting I'm not exactly in a bad place..

the piece I'm working on is a rock ballad..

not metal, but when it gets going it's certainly got plenty of power

so… this means less gain.. which is something I'm not used to..

after much experimentation I went for a pair of clean amps and cooked 'em up with high input-gain and MV settings, plus the boost switch on..

to the left: Herbert ch2-

to the right: 5153Green

as you can imagine, with less gain going on there's very little natural compression.. meaning that from a playing standpoint, you have to 'make it happen'.. took me quite a while to get used to actually.. my technique just isn't that forceful.. got there in the end though..

and in the mix.. holy fkn jeez what a tone..

I will certainly be using this little combination much more

Clarky

guitarfishbay said:

Anyone else compared cab lab converted ultra res IRs to 500ms versions?

I honestly feel there's a slight but noticeable difference using 500ms IRs so have totally abandoned cab lab in favour of loading 500ms OH IRs in Space Designer. I tend to use single mic IRs so not really a problem, and IR blending could easily be done duplicating tracks after tracking and treating them like real channels.

The biggest difference seems to be in the bass IRs. I don't think I have any options set wrong in cab lab, I just think the longer IR sounds a bit more natural and less 'Axe FX' if that makes sense. The shorter IRs tend to sound more immediate and tight, which I don't find necessary as there are already so many ways to make the Axe FX sound tight.

what format are the files you load into Space Designer??

all of mine are either .IR or .SYX so they won't load

guitarfishbay

.wav

I'm using Ownhammer packs. They come as .wavs and you convert them yourself using cab lab if you want to. They come with 200ms and 500ms versions.

This is their free demo http://www.ownhammer.com/free/v4-demo/

If you use that I think it comes with both 200 and 500ms versions and you can see if it is worth worrying about.

I've got many of their v4 packs though and to me they are very much worth it. They're cheaper than FAS packs as well.

All FAS packs as far as I'm aware are Axe FX/Cab Lab only, no .wavs - presumably to curb pirating.

guitarfishbay

I use raw non MPT, 48khz 500ms, and load in Space Designer. I'm using SPDIF from the Axe hence working at 48khz.

mrkb

Axe-Fx II Quantum 2.01

Further improvement of preamp tube models based on measurements. The existing theoretical models, i.e. "Modern", "Vintage", etc., have been removed. There are now six extremely accurate preamp tube types: 12AX7A, ECC83, 7025, 12AX7B, ECC803 and EF86. Note that the EF86 type has been normalized to have roughly the same gain as the triode types. Improved power tube saturation modeling. This yields warmer, "tubier" distortion. The PA Hardness parameter is automatically set for each power tube type but may be overridden if desired. Improved tube interaction modeling. A new parameter, "Harmonics", controls the amount of interaction. Higher values yield softer distortion. The default value is set for each amp model but may be overridden. Improved virtual output transformer saturation modeling. Change "Thru" bypass mode so that effect input is muted. This prevents, for example, delays from creating echoes when engaged. Added "Invert" mic type to Cabinet block. This inverts the signal allowing for interesting effects in conjunction with the delay parameter. Fixed Reverse Delay being modulated slightly for long delay times. Fixed Mr Z MZ-8 amp model sounding "off".

Clarky

awesome thanks… I'll have a play with this.. 

Clarky

did a deesperiment..

reamped a riff without a cab

loaded 2 instances of space designer and cablab3 on the channel strip

so…. I had 3 versions of the same IR:

200ms IR

500ms IR

cablab3 import from the Fractal Audio folder

I think I could just about make out a tiny difference between the 500ms and 200ms IR's.. 

the 500ms seemed minutely stronger in the low end.. very very difficult to hear..

and to be honest I wasn't sure if I was actually hearing it, or hearing it because I thought I should be hearing it..

very difficult..

the cablab3 IR was a little more noticeable.. so I could actually hear the difference.. but it was ever so small..

so… not trusting the ears that I've spent a lifetime destroying with my Marshall cabs, I decided to pop a spectrum analyser on it..

the 500ms and 200ms traces were very very close… where the 500ms trace looked to me to be minutely stronger in the 50Hz to 100Hz area.. but ithe difference is really tiny..

the cablab3 trace was more obvious.. the activity in the 50Hz to 100Hz area looked to be a little lower.. not much lower though.. just a tiny amount..

here's the gotchya…

the cablab3 IR was about -12dB lower in level than than the 200ms and 500ms IR's

and I dialled this in by ear and by looking at the meters [very difficult to nail 100%]

so hear's how the gotchya works..

the 200ms and 500ms IR's being louder, sounded more energetic.. is this the Fletcher Munson effect fooling me?

when you match the levels of all of them, they sound so close to being identical that it's really difficult to know if there actually is a difference, or if there is a minute level difference and you're actually hearing Fletcher Munson at work….

same with looking at the spectrum analyser traces.. did I match the levels 100% with each other??

I just can't be sure of that.. it's really difficult..

the only thing I'm certain of is that if there are actual differences, they are very small [to my ears]

guitarfishbay

Yes they are small - I have done all my tests by ear (as ultimately that is all that matters).

To me the bass response is preferable on the 500ms files, and I find it most noticeable on the OH bass pack which would make sense if your tests mostly show difference in 50-100hz.

The other test is playing through them. Send an Axe patch in with no cab sim on and play through cab lab vs 500ms. You can feel the low end differences more then. Also stop/start playing - you might hear more room in the 500ms file (this would depend on the source room really).

It might not be worth it to everyone but to me it is one of those small % things that I feel worth it. Especially for bass tones.

Clarky

to be honest… if I suspect there is a difference… even if it's minute, I'll go for it when it comes to reamping..

and for this experiment, I could not conclude with 100% certainty that there was or was not a difference..

but the fact that I think I may heard something is enough of a spook for me to adopt the 500ms [just in case]

because of course, it's always best to get everything as good as possible in the source audio..

interesting experiment..

I've pinged my experiment conclusion to Matt at FAS

I'm very interested to hear his take on this..

the reason being, that I do not 100% trust my ears..

Clarky

mrkb said:

Axe-Fx II Quantum 2.01

Further improvement of preamp tube models based on measurements. The existing theoretical models, i.e. "Modern", "Vintage", etc., have been removed. There are now six extremely accurate preamp tube types: 12AX7A, ECC83, 7025, 12AX7B, ECC803 and EF86. Note that the EF86 type has been normalized to have roughly the same gain as the triode types. Improved power tube saturation modeling. This yields warmer, "tubier" distortion. The PA Hardness parameter is automatically set for each power tube type but may be overridden if desired. Improved tube interaction modeling. A new parameter, "Harmonics", controls the amount of interaction. Higher values yield softer distortion. The default value is set for each amp model but may be overridden. Improved virtual output transformer saturation modeling. Change "Thru" bypass mode so that effect input is muted. This prevents, for example, delays from creating echoes when engaged. Added "Invert" mic type to Cabinet block. This inverts the signal allowing for interesting effects in conjunction with the delay parameter. Fixed Reverse Delay being modulated slightly for long delay times. Fixed Mr Z MZ-8 amp model sounding "off".

is there much of a difference between this and Q2.01beta?

Clarky

guitarfishbay said:

Yes they are small - I have done all my tests by ear (as ultimately that is all that matters).

To me the bass response is preferable on the 500ms files, and I find it most noticeable on the OH bass pack which would make sense if your tests mostly show difference in 50-100hz.

The other test is playing through them. Send an Axe patch in with no cab sim on and play through cab lab vs 500ms. You can feel the low end differences more then. Also stop/start playing - you might hear more room in the 500ms file (this would depend on the source room really).

It might not be worth it to everyone but to me it is one of those small % things that I feel worth it. Especially for bass tones.

I think I now need to buy the OH Marshall Collection..

so I can try to reproduce my 1960B live tone

Clarky

Clarky said:

guitarfishbay said:

Yes they are small - I have done all my tests by ear (as ultimately that is all that matters).

To me the bass response is preferable on the 500ms files, and I find it most noticeable on the OH bass pack which would make sense if your tests mostly show difference in 50-100hz.

The other test is playing through them. Send an Axe patch in with no cab sim on and play through cab lab vs 500ms. You can feel the low end differences more then. Also stop/start playing - you might hear more room in the 500ms file (this would depend on the source room really).

It might not be worth it to everyone but to me it is one of those small % things that I feel worth it. Especially for bass tones.

I think I now need to buy the OH Marshall Collection..

so I can try to reproduce my 1960B live tone

I am with new Marshall IR's

mrkb

Clarky said:

mrkb said:

Axe-Fx II Quantum 2.01

Further improvement of preamp tube models based on measurements. The existing theoretical models, i.e. "Modern", "Vintage", etc., have been removed. There are now six extremely accurate preamp tube types: 12AX7A, ECC83, 7025, 12AX7B, ECC803 and EF86. Note that the EF86 type has been normalized to have roughly the same gain as the triode types. Improved power tube saturation modeling. This yields warmer, "tubier" distortion. The PA Hardness parameter is automatically set for each power tube type but may be overridden if desired. Improved tube interaction modeling. A new parameter, "Harmonics", controls the amount of interaction. Higher values yield softer distortion. The default value is set for each amp model but may be overridden. Improved virtual output transformer saturation modeling. Change "Thru" bypass mode so that effect input is muted. This prevents, for example, delays from creating echoes when engaged. Added "Invert" mic type to Cabinet block. This inverts the signal allowing for interesting effects in conjunction with the delay parameter. Fixed Reverse Delay being modulated slightly for long delay times. Fixed Mr Z MZ-8 amp model sounding "off".

is there much of a difference between this and Q2.01beta?

Of course, It sounds 110% more real in the edge of breaking up lower mids....

mrkb

Or it might just fix the bugs from the beta release. :-)

guitarfishbay

I thought you had T75s? Not sure they're in the OH pack. I've got the multicab pack and I quite like it. I'm using one of the Lynchback IRs for a song and it is quite cool.

I like this pack for Marshall greenbacks too, different captures to the multicab. http://www.ownhammer.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=164&products_id=372

There are T75s in the Bogner 4x12 pack. http://www.ownhammer.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=153&products_id=360

Clarky

yes, I have the T75's in my cabs….

no prob tho..

I'll be trying out my new cab pack later today…

looking forward to it

guitarfishbay

Cool. Interested to see what you think. A lot of variety in that pack.

Roland

Isn't it about time we had some reviews of the Axe FX in our new FX Reviews section? It's also an opportunity to show the sounds you've created, or in Clarky's case his clean to lead transition.

Clarky

Roland said:

Isn't it about time we had some reviews of the Axe FX in our new FX Reviews section? It's also an opportunity to show the sounds you've created, or in Clarky's case his clean to lead transition.

I already have some tone morphing clips of the Axe.. they're not the most current firmware but I can post those if you're interested..