Flipping

TINMAN82

Hattigol said:

Wasn't collection only.
I didn't send him any 'sour grapes' text.
Other than that, spot on.

No sour grapes felt as you started this thread either I’m sure. It was @leerocker (the buyer) who said you don’t post or accept PayPal. 

richardhomer said:

As someone else said - transparency is the issue. Anyone who presents a sob story to buy low, then flip is essentially a (low-level - admittedly) fraudster. If anyone has that done to them on here, I think they should name and shame.

If someone buys something that hasn’t worked out for them, the ideal would probably be to advise the person they bought from and make their intentions known. If they make a ‘significant’ profit - it would be good form to offer to split it with the original owner. All of this assumes that the original purchase was on the forum btw.

Split with the original owner?! Just not grounded in reality. Once cash has been handed over, the buyer has no responsibility whatsoever to the original seller. Why should they make their intentions known if they decide to sell it on quickly?

There’s nothing legally fraudulent in this whatsover. The seller ultimately decides the selling price, full stop. If they unwittingly undersell it’s on them, lesson learned. If they are foolish enough to accept less on the back of a sob story from a stranger, it’s also on them (haggling is not illegal). If they consciously decide to accept less for a quicker sale, it’s also their decision. They have no further stake in the item purchased whatsover.

DB1

Not sure about that - probably most of us would have no trouble selling to a dealer knowing that they're going to make a good margin. I think it's understandable to feel disappointed if you feel let down if the purchase or sale has been underhand. Please note that this a general comment, and not 'at' anyone. I have no problem in anyone making a profit, genuinely I don't. I run a business myself, and that's the idea. Well, theoretically....

In a slightly different vein, a buyer should hope for the same transparency. I remember buying a Peavey Rockingham from a seller on eBay with a 100%  positive rating and described as perfect. When my guitar tech got hold of it, he told me that it was incredible that I'd got a sound out of it, the wiring was that badly lashed up. The seller denied all knowledge, and it wasn't worth the hassle of pursuing it. By that time, I didn't want it and decided to sell it, but wanted it retired first so that some other poison didn't have the problem. Sold it and delivered it to a lovely rockabilly chap in Harrogate. The amusing bit was that, after all that, he didn't actually play guitar but just wanted it for his wall. :-)

chris78

Happens to me all the time because I generally want to move something on quickly to buy the latest object of gas. I have made a small profit on 1 or 2 guitars, but that’s out of over 100 I’ve flipped in the past few years while I’ve been searching for the next best thing. It doesn’t really bother me as I see it as “hiring” a guitar to try, but I don’t want to think about the money I’ve burned.

My worst “loss” was a masterbuilt tele that I sold to buy an original 66 tele. The masterbuilt was brilliant, the 66 wasn’t. I sold the masterbuilt for £3,250, found it later it went to Greg’s Guitars and he sold it at around £5k. Ouchy 

Fishboy7

I'm curious to know what guitar. Was it the cs tele?

The market is pretty slow at the moment so I'm surprised anyone can be bothered to try make money being a flipper.

AlexC

Bottom line - guitars are commodities or objects of desire to many people. The fact they’re musical instruments built to  be played is secondary to some. There are people who collect stamps or Toby Jugs or thimbles and there are people who collect, swap and sell guitars. Just the way it is.

mgaw

I have been guilty ( feels like a cambodian re-education camp, minus the heat and abuse) of buying and flipping immediately. and using the same pics, mainly cos i am a twat really....there is so little profit made if any.plenty of small losses and some huge ones on here for good measure..

I reckon i have "lost" thousands buying and selling here over the last few years and thus have no qualms doing whatever i want with something i paid for..

If i sell a guitar for xxxxx and the buyer sells for yyyyy and gets it then thats his good fortune and mine really because i sold it for an amount i was happy with.

I totally make a conscious decision to take big hits now and again, i could hold out for the "right" price, but you know i hate guitars sitting doing nothing, i have had some cracking deals in my time and certainly dont mind being on the "wrong" end of a few.

I think if someone comes on here purely to exploit the classifieds then we should take issue with that certainly...but its good to have "churn" keeps the wheels in motion.

Blaendulais

Dominic said:

I really don't see the issue with this.
 Whether they are a dealer or not - If you are happy to sell so be it.
Would you underwrite them if they lose £200 ?
Pay your money and take your choice.
If it was such a certain bargain you would have been flooded with buyers and would have sold it for the best price -if this chap was the only buyer then you still sold it at the best price !
 If you genuinely had a few buyers and sold it considerably cheaper to somebody because they gave you a convincing sob story and you were kind then they are a shitty person but ultimately if their funds cleared and they didn't give you forged cash then you did a deal and shouldn't be "looking over the fence " as they say in the car dealing business.
 A few hundred quid or less by the time he has managed to sell is neither here nor there....dinner for 4 in crappy old Pizza Express is going to cost you £85 these days .

Crappy old pizza express @ £85 is a treat my family get once a month.  

DB1

Fair play to you - actually I agree with you, it's your business (apart from the pics thing which could infringe copyright) - but I get you don't give a sob story to get something cheaper do you? Again, absolutely not related to my earlier posts in the the thread.

I think the key is 'transparency' - it's a good deal when both parties end up being happy and, because we're enthusiasts, many of us would like to think that a deal's been done in good faith.

The argument seems to fall into two camps - 1) the folks that think 'it's none of your business what the buyer does with it' and 2) the folks that think that being honest is the right thing to do. 

I think it's 1) and 2) personally.

DB1

TINMAN82 said:

Hattigol said:

Wasn't collection only.
I didn't send him any 'sour grapes' text.
Other than that, spot on.

No sour grapes felt as you started this thread either I’m sure. It was @leerocker (the buyer) who said you don’t post or accept PayPal. 

You've got the wrong poster - it was me that Lee was replying to. No, I don't take PayPal or post, although that's not relevant to the conversation. I'm happy to take a guitar to someone though, as an aside, if that helps them. 

I don't sell that much stuff (only when I need to fund something else) to get involved in being a serious seller, but I've had too many scam attempts, and heard of too many scam attempts when accepting PayPal or posting (as Lee and I were discussing) to be bothered with it. 

lovestrat74

Blaendulais said:

Dominic said:

I really don't see the issue with this.
 Whether they are a dealer or not - If you are happy to sell so be it.
Would you underwrite them if they lose £200 ?
Pay your money and take your choice.
If it was such a certain bargain you would have been flooded with buyers and would have sold it for the best price -if this chap was the only buyer then you still sold it at the best price !
 If you genuinely had a few buyers and sold it considerably cheaper to somebody because they gave you a convincing sob story and you were kind then they are a shitty person but ultimately if their funds cleared and they didn't give you forged cash then you did a deal and shouldn't be "looking over the fence " as they say in the car dealing business.
 A few hundred quid or less by the time he has managed to sell is neither here nor there....dinner for 4 in crappy old Pizza Express is going to cost you £85 these days .

Crappy old pizza express @ £85 is a treat my family get once a month.  

You need to get some 2 for 1 vouchers 

RMJ

I sold a guitar mad cheap on here because I needed the money quick. It's since been sold on twice to members of this forum. If subsequent owners sold for a profit then fair play to them. 

carlos

AlexC said:

Bottom line - guitars are commodities or objects of desire to many people. The fact they’re musical instruments built to  be played is secondary to some. There are people who collect stamps or Toby Jugs or thimbles and there are people who collect, swap and sell guitars. Just the way it is.

Reminder that this is a collector and wall displayer forum first and a musician's forum second. 

robgilmo

Guys what do you mean by sob story? When I buy something I sometimes ask the seller what's your lowest price, or offer a lower price and see what they say, if they say no that's fine, sometimes they do, sometimes we meet in the middle, that's not a sob story. When I sell something sometimes I give the buyer a luck penny if they don't ask for a price reduction, like hand them back a tenner or something, but what sob stories have you been told?

robgilmo

Also guys, when you sell something on gumtree or reverb why dont you ask for what its worth? Or put it on Ebay? Ebay will always get a good price. I can understand selling on here at a low price to help people out and get a quick sale but gumtree? 

Grangousier

I think it's when a prospective buyer gets in touch to say "I really really want the thing, it's the perfect thing that I've dreamed about since I was a baby, but I can't afford it because of Tragic Family Reasons, so could you discount it heavily and put a smile on my old Mum's face" or whatever, and you do and it turns up on Ebay the next day with a 200% markup. 

(That's a bit of hyperbole, but gets the gist of it). 

I don't think any of us regularly on here are motivated by money particularly, but none of us want to feel like we've been manipulated and made to look a fool, particularly if that involves being nice to someone. And the fear of that makes people more suspicious than they really ought to be. 

I've been a terrible mark for sob-story conmen on the street in the past - not for very large amounts of money, but the feeling of being manipulated and tricked is terrible, and makes you afraid of what they could have taken you for. Consequently I'm very unlikely to not be an arsehole to someone who approaches me for help nowadays. It's not a justification - I'm still an arsehole - but has become an instinctive defence mechanism. 

FreddieVanHalen

leerocker said:

I think a few people on here will attest that i am certainly not a dealer and an absolute gear head who loses more money on gear than anyone on this forum,

 I am the idiot that goes and buys nearly everything new from a shop then passes on the savings to fellow fretboarders on here!

Lee

I can vouch for @leerocker ; in this regard - we've traded gear between ourselves and my impression is gear head not generally a bedroom trading flipper IME.

RMJ

robgilmo said:

Guys what do you mean by sob story? When I buy something I sometimes ask the seller what's your lowest price, or offer a lower price and see what they say, if they say no that's fine, sometimes they do, sometimes we meet in the middle, that's not a sob story. When I sell something sometimes I give the buyer a luck penny if they don't ask for a price reduction, like hand them back a tenner or something, but what sob stories have you been told?

Yeah I'm interested to know this too. I don't think I'd ever drop the price of something because someone tells a sob story

robgilmo

No nor me, I'd give them back a luck penny but their troubles arnt my troubles, I have my own sob stories and I'm sure they wouldn't want to hear them.

hassleham

Blaendulais said:

Crappy old pizza express @ £85 is a treat my family get once a month.  

I love pizza express!

jdgm

carlos said:

AlexC said:

Bottom line - guitars are commodities or objects of desire to many people. The fact they’re musical instruments built to  be played is secondary to some. There are people who collect stamps or Toby Jugs or thimbles and there are people who collect, swap and sell guitars. Just the way it is.

Reminder that this is a collector and wall displayer forum first and a musician's forum second. 

Blimey.

Didn't know that.

Thanks.