Liam Neeson

MattBanshee

fftc said:

MattBanshee said:

TL;DR - a person who is racist does not get to decide by themselves that they are no longer racist.

Can people not learn that a way of thinking they had was wrong and move on with a better way of thinking by themselves?
What do you think it would take if someone can't decide themselves?

No. They have to prove that to the people and communities that they have previously wronged, and accept their judgement on the matter.

Emp_Fab

Er... no they don't.  It is called enlightenment - and you don't need anyone else signing off on your achievement of it.

Snap

Octafish said:

I think some here are getting a bit too sucked in by his fake sincerity. Maybe I'am being way too cynically, but to me the whole thing stinks of a publicity stunt gone wrong. He only mentioned the incident to help promote/give some emotive credibility to his new film. Unfortunately, being an out off touch, pompous, lost in showbiz lovey he badly misjudged how the whole 'my misguided-racist-vigilante angst' would be (rightly or wrongly) received.

Spot on mate. Which is a piss poor way to carry on. Like I said, he's a right div.

MattBanshee

Emp_Fab said:

Er... no they don't.  It is called enlightenment - and you don't need anyone else signing off on your achievement of it.

You kinda do if you expect those people to change their opinions of you. Whether someone is racist or not is in the eye of the beholder; it isn't a self-defining trait.

Cols

MattBanshee said:

fftc said:

MattBanshee said:

TL;DR - a person who is racist does not get to decide by themselves that they are no longer racist.

Can people not learn that a way of thinking they had was wrong and move on with a better way of thinking by themselves?
What do you think it would take if someone can't decide themselves?

No. They have to prove that to the people and communities that they have previously wronged, and accept their judgement on the matter.

Precisely who has been wronged by him?  Are we descending into an Orwellian world of thoughtcrime here?

boogieman

heavyrocker said:

boogieman said:

Does it matter that he thought about specifically murdering a black man?  The fact is he’s admitted he wanted to murder someone and went as far as carrying a weapon around for a week while he contemplated doing it. If that’s his reaction, and he was seriously that angry that he thought about it that much, then he’s got huge anger and/or mental issues. 

Yes it does matter. Wanting revenge on the person who did it is understandable but the object of the hatred is one person. Saying you want revenge on any black man is objectifying a whole race, all of whom, except one man, had nothing to do with the crime.

I don’t condone the racist element at all. My point was the race of the intended victim shouldn’t make any difference because the fact he wanted to murder ANYONE in revenge is horrendous. Some people might think about taking revenge, but he was allegedly actively looking for an innocent victim, who just happened to be the same colour. That’s hardly normal behaviour. He was obviously a very angry man . I can sympathise with him being angry, who wouldn’t be...but if that makes him angry enough to kill someone (anyone) he’s got mental issues. 

Emp_Fab

I'm not sure if it's an ill-conceived publicity stunt, but on balance I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt regarding his sincerity.  He's being completely transparent about his thought processes at the time and his analysis of how he came to feel that way, his realisation that, of course, it was wrong, and his open expression of shock that a man who presumably didn't consider himself racist at the time could, under the right stimulus and pressure, briefly turn into one.  I believe what he's saying is that we all need to have a more open and honest discussion about racism rather than perpetuate this 'politically-correct denial' culture that undoubtedly exists.  Being honest with each other about how we truly feel about race is the only way that racism can be tackled.  Ironically, it's the 'pc-denial' finger-pointing movement that has risen its ignorant head and attacked him for suggesting we need a better way to tackle racism.  'Holier-than-thou-ism' is a very very potent and addictive drug.

Heartfeltdawn

MattBanshee said:

TL;DR - a person who is racist does not get to decide by themselves that they are no longer racist.

If an individual thinks racist thoughts, never shares them, and then questions why they think this way and works out their problem individually, then they can make that determination to my mind. It would be rare but it is not impossible. 

thebreeze

Snap said:

Octafish said:

I think some here are getting a bit too sucked in by his fake sincerity. Maybe I'am being way too cynically, but to me the whole thing stinks of a publicity stunt gone wrong. He only mentioned the incident to help promote/give some emotive credibility to his new film. Unfortunately, being an out off touch, pompous, lost in showbiz lovey he badly misjudged how the whole 'my misguided-racist-vigilante angst' would be (rightly or wrongly) received.

Spot on mate. Which is a piss poor way to carry on. Like I said, he's a right div.

I'm not so sure.  What he said was unusually honest, shockingly so.  You might feel he's very, very stupid but I think on balance I don't think he's so stupid as to think that what he was saying wasn't highly emotive and painful.  I think if you're used to promoting films you've got a pretty good idea of what kind of things should and shouldn't be said (the Graham Norton stories etc.)  Whether you rate his films or not, he's a successful actor and probably one that takes his work seriously.  I imagine in the making of this film he "got in touch" with these elements of revenge (which is very common in acting) and probably thought quite deeply about them as well as re-encountering his earlier feelings (and being horrified about them).

As well as thinking about the damage and chaos that an emotion like revenge can reek I think he was also trying to articulate something around redemption.  That we are all capable of vile and hateful thoughts and feelings but that it's the unprocessed acting out on these that is so dangerous.  If one is able to think about, discuss, understand, process these things into their rightful place (or you're lucky like he was and time passing helped), at the cost of guilt and shame there can be redemption and better relations.  It's not that we should be, or think, that we are all the same, but that we should learn to love/respect the difference.

Clapton, who's been a lot less communicative on the matter, went through something similar in the '70's.  We all have these terrible thoughts from time to time.  By exposing them to the world and not pretending that they don't exist (like 99.99% of Hollywood) they can be given no place to hide and fester and be acted upon.

crunchman

MattBanshee said:

Emp_Fab said:

Er... no they don't.  It is called enlightenment - and you don't need anyone else signing off on your achievement of it.

You kinda do if you expect those people to change their opinions of you. Whether someone is racist or not is in the eye of the beholder; it isn't a self-defining trait.

I disagree.

There is a whole school of thought that says black people can't be racist.  Read this if you want:

https://www.pambazuka.org/governance/black-people-can’t-be-racist

When Craig David went to American and was told by "Black" radio stations to get rid of his white guitarist, that is racist - at least to me beholding it as a white guitarist.  To people like the one who wrote that article who are beholding it, it can't possibly be racism, as black people cannot possibly ever be racist.

It can't just be in the eye of the beholder.  There has to be an absolute definition of racism.   Ultimately, it has to be about the attitude of the individual.  I say attitude rather than actions, as some people might have a racist attitude, but it may not be obvious from their outward actions.

If someone held racist views in the past, and genuinely renounced those views, then an external party can't see inside their head to say they are now still a racist. 

Philly_Q

If this does kill his career it creates a window of opportunity for someone in the "elderly tough guy resolves hostage situation, often on public transport" genre.

Denzel?  Maybe JCVD if budget's a problem?

bingefeller

Living and being brought up in Northern Ireland I can see where Liam's thoughts and attitude comes from.  This country is steeped in racism, homophobia, xenophobia and bigotry - look at the DUP.  I think the chances of Liam having seen a non-white person, or even having met a non Northern Irish person, before having left Northern Ireland would have been incredibly slim.  Just think about that for a second. 

There are groups of people who don't even like each other and they are from the same areas and are white. 

Another thing is that some of us have a laugh at the likes of MD Phillips, Richards Guitars and make threads taking the piss out of eBay listings and it seems to be ok.  But when an actor makes one misguided remark, that gets taken out of context, then some on here get all offended about it.  Stinks of hypocrisy to me. 

heavyrocker

thebreeze said:

We all have these terrible thoughts from time to time.  By exposing them to the world and not pretending that they don't exist (like 99.99% of Hollywood) they can be given no place to hide and fester and be acted upon.

Um no, I’m 100% certain I’ve never had the desire to walk the streets looking for a random black man to murder. And in fact he didn’t just think it, he acted upon it.

What he said was outrageous and the strong response is entirely justified. Anyone suggesting it’s just the ‘outraged, pc-brigade’ who are criticising him is deluded. 
 

celentium

He didn't act upon it. No human was hurt in the making of Liam Neeson's thoughts.

Maynehead

heavyrocker said:

thebreeze said:

We all have these terrible thoughts from time to time.  By exposing them to the world and not pretending that they don't exist (like 99.99% of Hollywood) they can be given no place to hide and fester and be acted upon.

Um no, I’m 100% certain I’ve never had the desire to walk the streets looking for a random black man to murder. And in fact he didn’t just think it, he acted upon it.

What he said was outrageous and the strong response is entirely justified. Anyone suggesting it’s just the ‘outraged, pc-brigade’ who are criticising him is deluded. 
 

Ofcourse you haven't, but has any of your close friends or family members ever been raped?

The point being made was, nobody is an angel, and we've all thought about or done things that we've regretted, or haven't been proud of. Most people choose to keep it as their dirty little secret, wrapped up and tucked away, so that we never have to expose to the world who we really are.

It takes courage and honesty to admit something like this, especially when he had nothing to gain from it, and everything to lose.

thebreeze

heavyrocker said:

thebreeze said:

We all have these terrible thoughts from time to time.  By exposing them to the world and not pretending that they don't exist (like 99.99% of Hollywood) they can be given no place to hide and fester and be acted upon.

Um no, I’m 100% certain I’ve never had the desire to walk the streets looking for a random black man to murder. And in fact he didn’t just think it, he acted upon it.

What he said was outrageous and the strong response is entirely justified. Anyone suggesting it’s just the ‘outraged, pc-brigade’ who are criticising him is deluded. 
 

Can you be certain?  Even in your dreams?  You may not have had that particular thought but I'm pretty sure at some stage in your life (maybe so far back you can't now remember) you will have had some terrible, shameful, disgraceful thoughts that you wouldn't want to share with anybody, even yourself perhaps?  Perhaps in the family feeling great injustice or in the classroom or in a crowd.  Maybe as someone cut you up in your car - "you f****ing bastard" and a fleeting thought, perhaps almost pleasurable?, (I hope) he'll wrap himself round a tree further down the road.  Teenagers are often thinking of (and doing) harm to others and themselves.

These are common thoughts and feelings.  I think Liam Neeson was in extremis and not so common but perhaps we are all capable of that - there not being too much difference between wishing to kill someone even of a certain race and wishing to see someone wrap themselves round a tree further down the road.  They're all really crazy thoughts brought on by anger.  But that's the thing, we're not always thinking and acting rationally and that's why it does us good to think about it rather than deny it, otherwise it can creep up and get out of hand.  What's remarkable is that Liam Neeson has been so honest to admit and talk about it.  He knows these thoughts and actions were wrong.  He's horrified by them now.

I suppose what I'm saying is we're all racist at some level (at least unconsciously because of how we're brought up etc.) but it's how we understand and manage that which is important.  John Barnes knows this.  The points above about being raised in N.I.are also very salient and relevant to this too.

Snap

heavyrocker said:

thebreeze said:

We all have these terrible thoughts from time to time.  By exposing them to the world and not pretending that they don't exist (like 99.99% of Hollywood) they can be given no place to hide and fester and be acted upon.

Um no, I’m 100% certain I’ve never had the desire to walk the streets looking for a random black man to murder. And in fact he didn’t just think it, he acted upon it.

What he said was outrageous and the strong response is entirely justified. Anyone suggesting it’s just the ‘outraged, pc-brigade’ who are criticising him is deluded. 
 

Oh for chrissakes!! He said how ashamed he was and shocked he was, that he could feel that way. People should back off and move on.

How many times have any of us done something we are ashamed of, or that has shocked you? I imagine we all have. Admitting it and recognising it is the best way (IMO) to deal with it. That way, you would hope you'd move on from being like that and be "a better person".

I honestly think the whole outrage is the unfortunate condition of todays' media (social and otherwise) propelled righteous indignation that makes people feel affirmed and morally better than other people.

perspective: 40 years ago he got so enraged by the rape of a friend that he decided to go on a racist hunt, radged up and ready for it. 40 years later he is talking about it and how ashamed and shocked he was at the whole thing. Are people not allowed to acknowledge their failings and deal with them?

Big deal. Really.

heavyrocker

It doesn’t matter how many times people say “have you never gotten angry before and thought something you later regretted” it doesn’t change what he said.  It’s not about me or anyone else, it’s about what he said. But just to be clear, yes I have many times before but none of them involved murdering an innocent person based on their race alone. Sorry if that makes me sound like I think I’m ‘morally superior’. Perhaps those people defending him are just morally deficient?

I know, I know it’s awful nowadays how people get called out for being racist or sexist isn’t it? It was much better back in the day when you could do it with impunity.  You know what it is? It’s political correctness gone mad I tell you.

VimFuego

 this is a long way from the most offensive thing he's said, I've seen Rob Roy.

Fretwired

Snap said:

 

Oh for chrissakes!! He said how ashamed he was and shocked he was, that he could feel that way. People should back off and move on.

Big deal. Really.

Yes, for some people this is a big deal and a serious issue .... read these excellent articles ...

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/feb/05/liam-neeson-interview-black-people-actor-racism

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/feb/06/liam-neesons-racist-actions-avenge-white-woman-lynching-black-people