The F1 thread

Fretwired

stickyfiddle said:

Running at Indy would help McLaren get some good PR, which would sell them more sports cars (I assume that is the main aim). 

They need to do *something* that they have a chance at winning at...

I've read they're interested in raising their US profile to attract a sponsor and maybe bring a US car company into F1. Liberty are keen to have more US-based F1 races and would love a US company to come into the sport as a sponsor/engine manufacturer. McLaren would need investment, but they would be more than capable of building an F1 engine if the regs change to simply the design and  reduce the cost. Ron looked at it but thought it too complex and expensive. Things have changed as McLaren ramp up car production - they sell everything they make so I guess they have one eye on Ferrari that manages to make cars, run an F1 team and design and build an engine.

And the powerplant in the current McLaren road cars was originally developed for Indycar but never made it into a race car.

Heartfeltdawn

Cols said:

Fretwired said:

From the Times .. I wonder if McClaren will eventually quit F1?

McLaren plan to race in Indy Cars

More likely it would be run in parallel to the F1 operation.  Mclaren’s reputation is for advanced technology, and with Indy Car being a single spec series with a Dallara chassis it wouldn’t serve the group ethos.

Assuming the cost cap comes in to F1, McLaren will either need to get rid of some staff or find something not involving F1 for them to do.  Running an Indy campaign would usefully occupy some racing staff, not cost too much (~$15 million)... and keep Alonso in the fold.

As would running in the WEC, something Zak Brown has talked about for some time. 

http://www.thedrive.com/accelerator/20851/mclaren-confirms-le-mans-interest-calls-proposed-lmp1-regulations-for-2021-compelling

The 720s GT is slated for a 2019 debut. If Alonso does leave F1, and Martin Brundle certainly thinks that there is a chance given Alonso's demeanour in an interview pre-race at Monaco, then a year driving in endurance races in 2019, time off for Indy, and then possibly leading a 2020/2021 new LMP1 McLaren team would be pretty awesome. 

Garthy

If Mclaren can afford LMP1. Team budgets in LMP1 are similar to F1 but without the income, sponsorship or spectators/viewers.

Fretwired

Heartfeltdawn said:

Cols said:

Fretwired said:

From the Times .. I wonder if McClaren will eventually quit F1?

McLaren plan to race in Indy Cars

More likely it would be run in parallel to the F1 operation.  Mclaren’s reputation is for advanced technology, and with Indy Car being a single spec series with a Dallara chassis it wouldn’t serve the group ethos.

Assuming the cost cap comes in to F1, McLaren will either need to get rid of some staff or find something not involving F1 for them to do.  Running an Indy campaign would usefully occupy some racing staff, not cost too much (~$15 million)... and keep Alonso in the fold.

As would running in the WEC, something Zak Brown has talked about for some time. 

http://www.thedrive.com/accelerator/20851/mclaren-confirms-le-mans-interest-calls-proposed-lmp1-regulations-for-2021-compelling

The 720s GT is slated for a 2019 debut. If Alonso does leave F1, and Martin Brundle certainly thinks that there is a chance given Alonso's demeanour in an interview pre-race at Monaco, then a year driving in endurance races in 2019, time off for Indy, and then possibly leading a 2020/2021 new LMP1 McLaren team would be pretty awesome. 

I think that would mean binning the F1 team. I can't see McLaren be able to afford do both unless the Saudi shareholders have unlimited pockets. Presumably engineers could be transferred from one team to another.

Heartfeltdawn

Garthy said:

If Mclaren can afford LMP1. Team budgets in LMP1 are similar to F1 but without the income, sponsorship or spectators/viewers.

Of course. It's a very different market to F1 and reducing the price of LMP1 is key to both a team like McLaren and the WEC as a whole. It may well be that they go for just GT3/LMPGT and don't go for a full WEC season. A McLaren team at Bathurst, Sebring, Le Mans, and Spa would be pretty good. 

Fretwired

Taken from a recent news article .. may explain McLaren's strategy. One engine that can do many things co-funded by BMW. An amalgamated approach to deliver F1 and and LMP1 success makes sense as it vastly reduces costs. I wonder if Mansour Ojjeh is prepared to open his chequebook?

McLaren considering engine build (March 2018):

Ties with McLaren automotive the road car division, which is finally seeing some success and turning a profit, are in discussions with BMW for a joint engine programme that will be headed by McLaren and Ricardo engineering, with BMW on board for expertise and cost sharing/reduction. BMW in turn will use a variant of this engine for an as yet undisclosed M project Hypercar.

The board headed by Mansour Ojjeh (TAG Group) has pushed Mclaren away from the segmented structure with its clear delimitation between road and race teams, to a more amalgamated approach. The benefits, financially and of resources, can be shared across the company as a whole. It are these measures that have being taken to provide McLaren with the holy grail they have always sought, their own beating heart. The F1 team has aligned to this vision in a bid to have McLaren escape the manufacturer orbit, and become masters of their own destiny.

Zak Brown whilst initially coy, did give an optimistic assessment,

“We’re interested to see what the new engine formula is in 2021 – and whether we consider doing our own engine, or whether other people would come in under new rules”.

McLaren have been burnt by new people coming in under new rules (Honda), and would not fit in with McLaren Automotive’s vision of fully fledged engine builders.

The next option would be a continuation with Renault, which has advantages and disadvantages. Renault will have priorities not aligned to their supplied teams. The issue of sourcing engines from Renault also lacks the historical cachet of Honda, or the sheen of Mercedes-Benz. McLaren would also still be in the orbit of a supplier.

The ideal scenario for Brown to forge McLaren’s vision, relies on a swift solution to the 2021 engine regulations. Once these have crystalised, budgets can be formed leading to the promised land of an engine project, Brown continues:

“For us to do our own engine, that’s not something we’ve done before – We’d consider doing it. We just need to have an understanding of the platform, what are the rules, and what is it going to cost? We certainly wouldn’t be in a position to spend the hundreds of millions that it takes now to develop engines, so they’re going to have to change the engine formula for it to be something that economically would be viable for us.”

Initial plans have progressed, but are largely dependant on the outcomes of meetings still to be had by the FIA, engine supplier and teams. An initial project with an unnamed company in powertrains has been discussed, with the possibility of a joint programme that could yield either a go-it-alone engine, or even shared with a competitor, mimicking McLaren automotive’s strategy of sharing initial development. The possibilities here could lead to a “independent” engine initially, with McLaren spinning off from the project towards the later development phase. There could even be an era of cooperation between rival teams to McLaren such as Williams and Force India, who all could bring positive contributions to the ambitious project.

Rumours appear rife in the paddock as McLaren have hitched up to a long term partnership with Petrobras, which is not only limited to fuel supply but also dubbed “technology partnership”. This is telling, and gives a prelude to what McLaren are positioning behind the scenes with Renault in bed with Castrol, Mercedes Petronas, Ferrari Shell and Honda Mobil.The major obstacle in the way to McLaren building it’s own engine is money, but speaking at the Petrobras unveil, Brown was bullish as to their budgetary health. “We are on target for our financial goals for sponsorship revenue for this year, and I think again that will just build momentum”

With Petrobras, it is a piece of the puzzle required and one that has years of experience in F1 adding to the momentum Brown was pointing out. McLaren are also still without title sponsor, but with Renault power and a more consistent platform, a title sponsor will be inevitable this year, adding revenues to a team with grand designs on overcoming the odds to make their own engine. And they can look to their iconic founder for some much needed emotive inspiration.

Cols

Breaking news, Williams just binned their head of aero...

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/136402/williams-aero-head-steps-down-from-role

stickyfiddle

Cols said:

Breaking news, Williams just binned their head of aero...

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/136402/williams-aero-head-steps-down-from-role

Well that was probably any easy decision for the management to make..!

Garthy

Sounds like another scapegoat. Look at the dude's CV!

Cols

Garthy said:

Sounds like another scapegoat. Look at the dude's CV!

Impeccable... but apparently the root of Williams’ problems is diffuser stall on corner entry.  That’s fundamentally an aero issue.

sinbaadi

Maybe he no longer has the "I can" attitude and lost his head a bit.  It's normal for someone like that to feel flat if they're left out for a long time.

chillidoggy

Awesome name, though.

Heartfeltdawn

It's a more dignified exit than Jorg Zander from Sauber earlier this year. Can't really do it worse than his demise. 

FelineGuitars

Oh lord Monaco was so boring....compared to Baku which was exciting even if Redbull weren't happy with their entertainment for the masses

boogieman

I was away for Monaco, from the sounds of it I didn’t miss much. I did record the C4 highlights but when I tried to play it back the recording on our Virgin box prompted me  to “watch via Sky subscription”. Not sure if this a new thing or what? The recording of the Spanish GP full race was fine. 

rlw

This really is looking like my last season of watching F1 - ie. sunscribing to Sky..  There is no real racing other than about ten minutes in every ninety, mainly from the lower order, and we don't see it.  Until cars can run close together nothing will change.  Give them a single element front and rear wing and ground effects please - nose to tail at 195 mph totally possible.

Looking forward to Le Mans in two weeks though, where racing takes place throughout the field for most of the race and frequently up to the last corner of the last lap in all  four categories.  Eurosport will provide me with trackside pictures and sound and Radio Le Mans will provide the commentary.  24 hours of utter bliss.

Heartfeltdawn

rlw said:

This really is looking like my last season of watching F1 - ie. sunscribing to Sky..  There is no real racing other than about ten minutes in every ninety, mainly from the lower order, and we don't see it.  Until cars can run close together nothing will change.  Give them a single element front and rear wing and ground effects please - nose to tail at 195 mph totally possible.

Looking forward to Le Mans in two weeks though, where racing takes place throughout the field for most of the race and frequently up to the last corner of the last lap in all  four categories.  Eurosport will provide me with trackside pictures and sound and Radio Le Mans will provide the commentary.  24 hours of utter bliss.

When you see how the changes in IndyCar design for this season have helped the racing, it highlights F1's failings. 

With you all the way on Le Mans  but the highlight for me will be the Spa 24 hour. 

Garthy

rlw said:

This really is looking like my last season of watching F1 - ie. sunscribing to Sky..  There is no real racing other than about ten minutes in every ninety, mainly from the lower order, and we don't see it.  Until cars can run close together nothing will change.  Give them a single element front and rear wing and ground effects please - nose to tail at 195 mph totally possible.

Looking forward to Le Mans in two weeks though, where racing takes place throughout the field for most of the race and frequently up to the last corner of the last lap in all  four categories.  Eurosport will provide me with trackside pictures and sound and Radio Le Mans will provide the commentary.  24 hours of utter bliss.

I'm the opposite, I think this is one of the best seasons ever, my previous favourite was 2010 but at this rate 2018 will pip that.

Simplified front wings just mean all or nothing, but too many people just do not understand this so Liberty are bowing to fan pressure and going through with this next year yet the racing will not be closer once an equilibrium is found.

Le Mans/WEC. I usually watch the lot but my God this year is a non event. LMP1 has one hybrid team which will be way out infront. Rebellion is the only other pukka LMP1 team so they'll be on their own. The remainder of LMP1 is a mish mash of crap that are unlikely to see the end. GTE Pro has BOP problems, Corvette may as well not turn up and Ford having gamed the system last year have been given even more power this year.

rlw

Heartfeltdawn said:

rlw said:

This really is looking like my last season of watching F1 - ie. sunscribing to Sky..  There is no real racing other than about ten minutes in every ninety, mainly from the lower order, and we don't see it.  Until cars can run close together nothing will change.  Give them a single element front and rear wing and ground effects please - nose to tail at 195 mph totally possible.

Looking forward to Le Mans in two weeks though, where racing takes place throughout the field for most of the race and frequently up to the last corner of the last lap in all  four categories.  Eurosport will provide me with trackside pictures and sound and Radio Le Mans will provide the commentary.  24 hours of utter bliss.

When you see how the changes in IndyCar design for this season have helped the racing, it highlights F1's failings. 

With you all the way on Le Mans  but the highlight for me will be the Spa 24 hour. 

Spa has better chips but more unpredictable weather.  And you never get a moment's silence there either....

Fretwired

I agree with @Garthy ; ... bar Monaco it's been an interesting year. Three drivers with two wins a piece, Hamilton not running away with the championship as predicted and Ferrari actually the fastest car in some races. Canada will be interesting as Hamilton has dominated the track - can Ferrari out muscle the Mercs with more power. The teams are all bringing major power and aero updates so could be a good race.