The F1 thread

rlw

Sorry but you need two hands on the wheel to drive like this - impossible in a manual.

sinbaadi

If all that matters is how fast, then sure.  Paddle shifts just remove a really involving and skillful element from the driving equation.  For what?  Why not add auto brakes and throttle, steering too, if it makes it faster, right?  

End of the day, everything is slow compared with LMP or F1.  I don't really understand the obsession with investing so much energy into making slow cars a bit faster at the expense of fun?

Cols

Manual vs flappy paddle gear shifts?  I'll just leave this here.

TC, ABS and semiautomatic gear shifts may get you closer to the ultimate pace of the car, but that's hardly the point.  F1 cars should be noisy, ill-tempered beasts which are difficult to drive quickly and will bite hard if you make a mistake.

Boromedic

One of my fave clips of all time, brilliance. They should have 2 races for the F1 drivers per weekend, a high tech one and then a single make hard as hell to drive, manual beastie, that would be awesome!

Dontgiveupyourdayjob

rlw said: have

Sorry but you need two hands on the wheel to drive like this - impossible in a manual.

Nah, if you can drive like this in a manual then you don't need paddles to drive on any circuit... (Check out the 'moment' from about 2:08)

Fretwired

David Coulthard says Hamilton will quit F1 in 2020 .. I wonder if that means Mercedes will leave as well now they are in Formula E?

Heartfeltdawn

sinbaadi said:

If all that matters is how fast, then sure.  Paddle shifts just remove a really involving and skillful element from the driving equation.  For what?  Why not add auto brakes and throttle, steering too, if it makes it faster, right?  

End of the day, everything is slow compared with LMP or F1.  I don't really understand the obsession with investing so much energy into making slow cars a bit faster at the expense of fun?

Paddle shifters versus manual gearing is like comparing those people who batted in the 1970's against quick bowlers without helmets to those batsmen now who are well protected. Whilst I can admire the bravery that those batsmen demonstrated, I'm not sure I'd want to return to the old days of risk. 

Cols

Fretwired said:

David Coulthard says Hamilton will quit F1 in 2020 .. I wonder if that means Mercedes will leave as well now they are in Formula E?

Apparently he wants to have a music career.  Like Jacques Villeneuve

Fretwired

Cols said:

Fretwired said:

David Coulthard says Hamilton will quit F1 in 2020 .. I wonder if that means Mercedes will leave as well now they are in Formula E?

Apparently he wants to have a music career.  Like Jacques Villeneuve

I'll believe the music career when I see it. He could follow Alonso out of F1 into another motor sport, or he has said that he might like to swap four wheels for two wheels.

It looks like Liberty may have a problem going forward as the major tracks are getting together to get the fees reduced. Less income means less prize money. The last race at Monaco has seen F1 lampooned on social media by fans of other motor sports and even Toto thinks that over time Formula E cars will be faster and more challenging to drive than F1 cars, as well as being more relevant to car manufacturers like Mercedes which is why they have entered.

Heartfeltdawn

Fretwired said:

David Coulthard says Hamilton will quit F1 in 2020 .. I wonder if that means Mercedes will leave as well now they are in Formula E?

More importantly, is that post-2020 Lewis Hamilton album going to be as 'compelling' as Naomi Campbell's babywoman LP? 

Garthy

Cols said:

Manual vs flappy paddle gear shifts?  I'll just leave this here.

TC, ABS and semiautomatic gear shifts may get you closer to the ultimate pace of the car, but that's hardly the point.  F1 cars should be noisy, ill-tempered beasts which are difficult to drive quickly and will bite hard if you make a mistake.

Put that ropey camera and mic on a modern car and you’d be blown away.

An F2 car was quicker than Senna last Saturday...

Cols

Fretwired said:

It looks like Liberty may have a problem going forward as the major tracks are getting together to get the fees reduced. Less income means less prize money. 

And quite right too.  It can’t be right that the only viable models for hosting a Grand Prix are either heavy government subsidies or to run it as a loss leader.  And I’m reasonably sure none of the teams are making any kind of profit.  In fact, for some time now the only ones making money from F1 have been the commercial rights holder and a handful of drivers.

Heartfeltdawn

Garthy said:

Put that ropey camera and mic on a modern car and you’d be blown away.

An F2 car was quicker than Senna last Saturday...

It'd be interesting to see a comparison of 1990 F1 car versus 2018 F2 car in terms of downforce, acceleration etc. I imagine it's similar to comparing Group B rally cars to the modern equivalent. Group B had a greater top speed but the modern ones are a bit quicker than to technological advancements. 

Cols

Garthy said:

Cols said:

Manual vs flappy paddle gear shifts?  I'll just leave this here.

TC, ABS and semiautomatic gear shifts may get you closer to the ultimate pace of the car, but that's hardly the point.  F1 cars should be noisy, ill-tempered beasts which are difficult to drive quickly and will bite hard if you make a mistake.

Put that ropey camera and mic on a modern car and you’d be blown away.

An F2 car was quicker than Senna last Saturday...

I don’t have to put a ropey camera and mic on a modern car.  I have this.

https://youtu.be/xbrKA6IwgcM

And the difference, I can watch Ricciardo’s pole lap and think to myself “Yeah, I could do that” (I couldn’t, but that’s hardly the point).  Whereas Senna’s lap looks clearly beyond the capability of any normal person.

TimmyO

Fretwired said:

Cols said:

Fretwired said:

David Coulthard says Hamilton will quit F1 in 2020 .. I wonder if that means Mercedes will leave as well now they are in Formula E?

Apparently he wants to have a music career.  Like Jacques Villeneuve

I'll believe the music career when I see it. He could follow Alonso out of F1 into another motor sport, or he has said that he might like to swap four wheels for two wheels.

It looks like Liberty may have a problem going forward as the major tracks are getting together to get the fees reduced. Less income means less prize money. The last race at Monaco has seen F1 lampooned on social media by fans of other motor sports and even Toto thinks that over time Formula E cars will be faster and more challenging to drive than F1 cars, as well as being more relevant to car manufacturers like Mercedes which is why they have entered.

Fuck the lampooning - it's almost always based ona  wilfully ignorant simplification of the sport.

"There wasn't much overtaking" is as valid a bitch as "There were no goals in that local derby end to end thriller" - ie stupid. 

And if the E series become fast and challenging to drive and have complex outcomes and team relationships etc etc that makes F1 as compelling as it is then that will be great - it will be rightfully a top formula. But right now it's flimsy skittish bumper cars going "eeeeeeeeeeeeeee" and it does nowt for me.

But, and this is worth noting for those who only come on this thread so to do) I don't go around chasing down those folk who do like it and moaning at them about their shitty sport. 

stickyfiddle

Completely agree @TimmyO ;

The minority filling comments sections with anti-Monaco whining are the same ones moaning hat that they don’t want the sport to become open-wheel-NASCAR whenever rule changes that might allow drivers to fight are mooted. I suspect these are the same commenters who also don’t want the sport to drop all the classic venues in favour of modern racetracks with viable business models that maximise safety for participants. 

There will be no pleasing these people. Liberty know that, and as far as I can tell, don’t care. 

I look forward to the proposed 2019 changes and the 2021 ones even more so. 

All i want to a see is great drivers in cars that have more power than grip, and are able to drive just as quick when within 0.5s of the guy in front as they can when they’re in clear air.

Garthy

Cols said:

Garthy said:

Cols said:

Manual vs flappy paddle gear shifts?  I'll just leave this here.

TC, ABS and semiautomatic gear shifts may get you closer to the ultimate pace of the car, but that's hardly the point.  F1 cars should be noisy, ill-tempered beasts which are difficult to drive quickly and will bite hard if you make a mistake.

Put that ropey camera and mic on a modern car and you’d be blown away.

An F2 car was quicker than Senna last Saturday...

I don’t have to put a ropey camera and mic on a modern car.  I have this.

https://youtu.be/xbrKA6IwgcM

And the difference, I can watch Ricciardo’s pole lap and think to myself “Yeah, I could do that” (I couldn’t, but that’s hardly the point).  Whereas Senna’s lap looks clearly beyond the capability of any normal person.

I've posted this before, the camera tech has 'sanitised' the onboard footage.

Put that old 80s camera & transmitter on a 2018 car on a 4:3 PAL TV and Ricciardo's lap would look heroic.

Heartfeltdawn

When it comes to mockery, F1's got a long way to go before it's ripped to bits like Nascar is. 

@TimmyO I agree with some of your comments but when Monaco is given such hype, all the 'jewel in the crown' bullshit, and culminates in a) a chap ends up winning it despite a seriously fucked up car because it is impossible to overtake him and b) the current reigning champion saying how slow and dull it was, then F1 has to address that. The unpredictable start to the season with safety cars throwing up odd results doesn't detract from the core issues that have blighted F1 for ages, namely the cost of competing, the unfairness of the rewards system, and the difficulties on track with overtaking. 

The more I see of Indy, the more I like the push to pass system. Instead of having a DRS zone, having 60 seconds of boost per Grand Prix per driver would be a splendid thing. I was sceptical but being able to use such a system in online sim racing last year converted me. 

DRS is predictable for the most part: a driver being able to figure out when and where to use his boost would add an element of unpredictability to races.

stickyfiddle said:

The minority filling comments sections with anti-Monaco whining are the same ones moaning hat that they don’t want the sport to become open-wheel-NASCAR whenever rule changes that might allow drivers to fight are mooted. I suspect these are the same commenters who also don’t want the sport to drop all the classic venues in favour of modern racetracks with viable business models that maximise safety for participants. 

There will be no pleasing these people. Liberty know that, and as far as I can tell, don’t care. 

I look forward to the proposed 2019 changes and the 2021 ones even more so. 

All i want to a see is great drivers in cars that have more power than grip, and are able to drive just as quick when within 0.5s of the guy in front as they can when they’re in clear air.

I'm not sure about that. There was a lot of criticism at proposals to drop older venues (it wasn't so long that Spa was threatened, Germany's been off and on for ages and it's fair to say Bernie had a few other reasons to be pissy for years at Germany, Silverstone is an ongoing saga) and new tracks came along. The old tracks felt the F1 model was greedy: F1 thought the new tracks would bring in the coin. Several didn't: India, Turkey Malaysia, Korea. So the question of the viable business model is an interesting one when F1's deal with tracks doesn't look particularly viable when you consider how the fee escalator works.

I'd agree with the last paragraph. Whether it happens... 

Garthy

Different tracks had different rates, and the European tracks had far lower fees that the RoW tracks. Monza and Spa paid sod all compared to Singapore & the Tilkerdromes. I'd say Bernie had been very accommodating for the German tracks for years, Hockenheim especially was thoroughly taking the piss.

The track owners themselves are as bad as the teams for back stabbing and conniving. I think it was the 2013 calendar that was in jeopardy because 12 of 18 tracks did not have a contract for that year - did they club together to get lower rates? No they fucked each other instead and the 2013 season went ahead with higher fees.

Heartfeltdawn

Garthy said:

Different tracks had different rates, and the European tracks had far lower fees that the RoW tracks. Monza and Spa paid sod all compared to Singapore & the Tilkerdromes. I'd say Bernie had been very accommodating for the German tracks for years, Hockenheim especially was thoroughly taking the piss.

The track owners themselves are as bad as the teams for back stabbing and conniving. I think it was the 2013 calendar that was in jeopardy because 12 of 18 tracks did not have a contract for that year - did they club together to get lower rates? No they fucked each other instead and the 2013 season went ahead with higher fees.

Yes that is true.In 2016 Silverstone had the lowest fee of any European GP bar Monaco which paid nowt. Silverstone also had no government funding. So I think it's fair to say that Bernie was accommodating to some tracks and quite happy to sell out to however bid the most money for the RoW venue side. Some survived like Singapore, some didn't. It's similar to watching county cricket venues outbid one another for international Test matches. 

F1 is frequently it's own worst enemy as you pointed out with the 2013 fee situation. One day I hope it isn't.