EU Referendum Vote - Poll

Myranda

Evilmags said:

Again Switzerland has no minimum wage, plenty of immigrants and the highest salary levels in Europe.

And cheaper to live than where I live now... if only I liked the cold I think I'd be asking to live there

Clarky

Rocker said:

Clarky;1123603" said:

I wonder how many people that voted out are now thinking "oh fk, what have we just gone and done?"

A lot I imagine. Northern Ireland voted to remain. Jeffrey Donaldson, whose party canvassed for an out vote, was interviewed on the radio this morning. He said that there were advantages for the UK voting out. When asked for one, he was totally flummoxed. Not one could he give. Seems he expected a remain result.

this being the case…

I'm hoping that, after what I imagine could be quite some negotiation between UK and EU, that at some point in the not too distant future there will be a "before we pull the trigger on this, are you really absolutely fkn sure?" referendum, backed up by something meaningful from the EU top bods in the way of reform and possibly even a direction change away from federalisation

you can only hope eh….

octatonic

Myranda said:

Evilmags said:

Again Switzerland has no minimum wage, plenty of immigrants and the highest salary levels in Europe.

And cheaper to live than where I live now... if only I liked the cold I think I'd be asking to live there

I've lived in Switzerland.

It is an expensive place because salaries are so high- there is no cheap labour.

Also the Swiss have a habit of cancelling the work visa's of foreign workers when the economy tanks.

In terms of weather- it is better than here, you have cold winters but summers are glorious.

digitalscream

Clarky said:

this being the case…

I'm hoping that, after what I imagine could be quite some negotiation between UK and EU, that at some point in the not too distant future there will be a "before we pull the trigger on this, are you really absolutely fkn sure?" referendum when the facts of what we're signing up for are absolutely known and with a ban on campaigning, backed up by something meaningful from the EU top bods in the way of reform and possibly even a direction change away from federalisation

you can only hope eh….

Just a slight correction there, and that's probably the best idea I've seen.

Ro_S

Myranda said:

Too high according to what objective accounting of such things?

The density of the population is getting too high.   Our country is only a certain size.  Our housing supply is limited. Our public services are only funded to be able can cater for certain numbers.  

Our immigration has been much higher than the rest of EU generally.   

The above all have figures attached to them.

I suggest that the majority of English ppl feel that the levels of immigration over the past 15 years has been way too high.  Their perception is their prerogative and is based on their own experiences.

Voters come to their own decisions.

Myranda

octatonic said:

Myranda said:

Evilmags said:

Again Switzerland has no minimum wage, plenty of immigrants and the highest salary levels in Europe.

And cheaper to live than where I live now... if only I liked the cold I think I'd be asking to live there

I've lived in Switzerland.

It is an expensive place because salaries are so high- there is no cheap labour.

Also the Swiss have a habit of cancelling the work visa's of foreign workers when the economy tanks.

In terms of weather- it is better than here, you have cold winters but summers are glorious.

Where I live in Sussex the prices were the same as where I was in London, and because of a conversation online I compared the cost of living in London to Bern... was slightly cheaper in Bern.

Job I'm learning at uni to do can be done anywhere in the world I suppose... couple of years and I might speak to the consulate and see what I'd need to do...

Ro_S said:

Myranda said:

Too high according to what objective accounting of such things?

The density of the population is getting too high.   Our country is only a certain size.  Our housing supply is limited. Our public services are only funded to be able can cater for certain numbers.  

Our immigration has been much higher than the rest of EU generally.   

The above all have figures attached to them.

I suggest that the majority of English ppl feel that the levels of immigration over the past 15 years has been way too high.  Their perception is their prerogative and is based on their own experiences.

Voters come to their own decisions.

There is plenty of space to build houses, building houses makes jobs... selling them makes the money markets go around... and there are more and more pension age people... would it not make sense to get lots of young immigrants to pay tax...

Never mind... it's done now the worst option won, we should get on with living with it.

Rocker

Heard on the radio that if the UK gets the same deal as Norway, the UK will have to contribute a very significant amount of money to the EU.  As Norway does at the present time.

Pay without a say.  That's a good deal??????????????

Ro_S

Myranda said:

There is plenty of space to build houses

'depends on where in the uk one is referring too.   

that isn't the case in very many parts of england.  

the population density in england as a whole is currently too high.

the rate of immigration in the past 10-15 years is not sustainable.

freedom of movement in the eu hasn't worked cos there is such diversity of economic situations across all the different countries.  a few countries in particular are far more attractive to live in.   

Drew_TNBD

Myranda said:

octatonic said:

Myranda said:

Evilmags said:

Again Switzerland has no minimum wage, plenty of immigrants and the highest salary levels in Europe.

And cheaper to live than where I live now... if only I liked the cold I think I'd be asking to live there

I've lived in Switzerland.

It is an expensive place because salaries are so high- there is no cheap labour.

Also the Swiss have a habit of cancelling the work visa's of foreign workers when the economy tanks.

In terms of weather- it is better than here, you have cold winters but summers are glorious.

Where I live in Sussex the prices were the same as where I was in London, and because of a conversation online I compared the cost of living in London to Bern... was slightly cheaper in Bern.

Job I'm learning at uni to do can be done anywhere in the world I suppose... couple of years and I might speak to the consulate and see what I'd need to do...

Ro_S said:

Myranda said:

Too high according to what objective accounting of such things?

The density of the population is getting too high.   Our country is only a certain size.  Our housing supply is limited. Our public services are only funded to be able can cater for certain numbers.  

Our immigration has been much higher than the rest of EU generally.   

The above all have figures attached to them.

I suggest that the majority of English ppl feel that the levels of immigration over the past 15 years has been way too high.  Their perception is their prerogative and is based on their own experiences.

Voters come to their own decisions.

There is plenty of space to build houses, building houses makes jobs... selling them makes the money markets go around... and there are more and more pension age people... would it not make sense to get lots of young immigrants to pay tax...

Problem is, we're not allowed to build on huge chunks of our land. Eco-warriors wont allow it.

hugbot

Myranda;1124210" said:

hugbot said:



Fretwired said:



hugbot said:



Heartfeltdawn said:

ToneControl said: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36621777Not the time or place. When Labour is sat here figuring out how it can get back in with the Northern Labour areas who voted Leave, having two old chick Remainers coming out with this is risible and demonstrating that Labour are still hopeless within themselves. 





Labour is in a fucked checkmate position regardless. On one hand you've got the "labour heartland", who are anti-immigration. On the other the labour metropolitan city demogrpahic, who are pro. And as this referendum showed with the polls of "leavers" reasons for voting immigration is an election deciding issue. How on earth do you reconcile those groups?

Gove was on R4 on Tuesday I think and John Humphrey's asked him about migrant numbers if Leave won - he refused to answer. John asked if migration would fall - Gove waffled on about us being able to select the best. Truth is voting Leave won't reduce migration - the UK has a skills shortage. For example, we are 100,000 welders short so God knows how HS2 will get built without migrants. There's your argument. Leave were never put on the spot regarding numbers.












Arguing the benefits of migration is a total non starter, thats how most of this debate was framed

You're correct that the challenging leave  o whether they could actually deliver on reduced migration as they claim is what remain SHOULD have done. I saw a tv debate where a young, 20 somethingish art student argued that immigration was good because of "multiculturalism and diversity and stuff" only to get smacked down by a manual labourer who rebutted that he didn't give a shit about that stuff, he cared about his job.

That line of argument was never going to resonate, the manual labourer guy was black too which points to another uncomfortable truth - a lot of anti-immigration rhetoric isn't just from racists, its from settled immigrants who see the next wave as a threat to the positions they just got into. Hence why bermingham swang towards leave.










Did you just imply that a man who is black can't be racist?

No I implied that the political stereotype and thus the argument falls down there. I found the video of the debate on YouTube and all the comments were saying 'haha look at the lefty, he can't think of anything to say when he can't cry racism '.

And they had a point, the left needs a better argument than that. If you can't articulate the benefits of immigration without platitudes then you've fuckin' lost that debate.

(that's not to say there is no racism that goes on from the anti immigration camp mind).

Drew_TNBD

hugbot said:

And they had a point, the left needs a better argument than that.

Absolutely!

It's no coincidence that across the US and UK, libertarian politics has been picking up steam. But it's a steam that has largely gone undirected and unappreciated by the established parties, which is why you get people like Trump and Farrage leading the call.

The mainstream has largely failed to update themselves for the modern age. And that is largely responsible for people's feelings of ostracization.

Like I said on Facebook - Censorship, doublespeak, and thought control does not work. And never will.

Ro_S

Re: turnouts....

I notice that the turnout in inner London council areas was low (relative to national turnout %).  That didn't help the Remain vote.   

Maybe the bad weather/flooding/travel/public transport conditions in inner London on polling day was a factor.

I see that the turnout was also lower in many other city areas around the UK, though.   

Perhaps the inner cities have less politically engaged population contingents.  

They're probably poorer and less intelligent.   

(Yes, these are generalisations!  I'm not suggesting everyone who lives in a city is below average intelligence and poorer!)

Is turnout lower among ethnic minorities?

Cities probably have greater proportions of younger adults, partly do to university student populations.  I suppose young adult turnout is low.

I wonder how the proximity of the polling day at the end of the academic year at universities meant that students became displaced from the area they were registered to vote at because they had gone back home once their exams had finished. 

Tone71

 

Emp_Fab

Sporky said:

Drew_fx said:

So what does this all mean for @Emp_Fab and his £800 of Euros ???

Good question.

Depends, I think, on how quickly the exchange agents track the money markets.

Well, I'm 90 Euros better off so far. If the rate drops lower I'll be better off again.

octatonic

Emp_Fab said:

Sporky said:

Drew_fx said:

So what does this all mean for @Emp_Fab and his £800 of Euros ???

Good question.

Depends, I think, on how quickly the exchange agents track the money markets.

Well, I'm 90 Euros better off so far. If the rate drops lower I'll be better off again.

Well we are going to compare, if the £ drops to parity with the dollar I'm going to cash in some stock and pay off my mortgage.

Emp_Fab

Drew_fx;1124218" said:

Myranda;1124201" said:Did the people NOT just vote to leave the EU?

We didn't all get together and go "we all hate foreigners don't we? Down with this sort of thing!"



There are MANY different reasons that people voted leave. Stop fucking asserting that it was just because of immigration. That is DUMB!

Calm down dear! Why are you so angry all the time dude? Myranda can assert anything she wants without being insulted. FWIW, I think that for probably 80% of leave voters immigration was the main, if not only, concern.

chillidoggy

I've just found $425 in which I'd forgotten about, and never changed back into GBP!

Result!

octatonic

chillidoggy said:

I've just found $425 in which I'd forgotten about, and never changed back into GBP!

Result!

Wait a bit and you should be able to buy Leicestershire.

Not sure I would myself though.

chillidoggy

octatonic said:

chillidoggy said:

I've just found $425 in which I'd forgotten about, and never changed back into GBP!

Result!

Wait a bit and you should be able to buy Leicestershire.

Not sure I would myself though.

Too late, I've already bought the entire island of Thanet.

octatonic

chillidoggy said:

octatonic said:

chillidoggy said:

I've just found $425 in which I'd forgotten about, and never changed back into GBP!

Result!

Wait a bit and you should be able to buy Leicestershire.

Not sure I would myself though.

Too late, I've already bought the entire island of Thanet.

Well, Farage will be your MP next time around.