Brexit legal challenge suceeds. Discuss.

TimmyO

Brexit is over 

Evilmags

Bunch of idiot lawyers thinking they have greater say than a majority referendum. Evil, democracy denying fuck wits seems about right. 

Fretwired

Jalapeno said:

stickyfiddle said:

crunchman said:

Myranda said:

Fretwired said:

Myranda said:

Hopefully, this will mean that May will need to prove she has a plan by spelling it out, rather than parroting "Brexit means brexit" ... you really should try Prime Minister to avoid using the word you're trying to define in the definition. 

Keeping her plan to herself seems much more like not having a plan... and given our economy hinges on it we might like to know that our best interests are protected 

But you can't negotiate like that - a public discussion in parliament and then you go over to Brussels. They'll see you coming - you cannot negotiate a deal like Brexit in public. Trust me - Brexit is dead.

You can negotiate unless you plan on somehow blackmailing your counter parts...

And there's a difference between an outline of desired outcomes to the specifics and minutia... currently no plan of any sort is in evidence only "we'll get the best deal we can" well if we're offered a shit sandwich and nothing else it would still be the best deal we got... still not a good deal though.

It should be for parliament to decide what is a good deal... not one person who won't even say what she thinks a good deal looks like

It would be stupid to spell out in Parliament what you are trying to get in the negotiations.  May would say we want such and such.  All Europe would have to do is refuse the things May says she wants and then the remoaners in Parliament would try to block Brexit - until they lose their seats at the next election.  Meanwhile the whole process will drag on and on and on which won't be good for anyone.

To be honest, once article 50 is triggered we leave after 2 years anyway in a "hard" Brexit.  If Parliament blocks triggering it then May will call an election at which the Tories will massively increase their majority based on current polls and push it through anyway.

May can't call an election - it doesn't work like that any more.

If May makes iarticle50  a vote of Confidence and loses, she can I believe call a general election.

She can call an election - if she gets 60% of MPs to agree in a vote then we will have one.

Fretwired

crunchman said:

Myranda said:

Fretwired said:

Myranda said:

Hopefully, this will mean that May will need to prove she has a plan by spelling it out, rather than parroting "Brexit means brexit" ... you really should try Prime Minister to avoid using the word you're trying to define in the definition. 

Keeping her plan to herself seems much more like not having a plan... and given our economy hinges on it we might like to know that our best interests are protected 

But you can't negotiate like that - a public discussion in parliament and then you go over to Brussels. They'll see you coming - you cannot negotiate a deal like Brexit in public. Trust me - Brexit is dead.

To be honest, once article 50 is triggered we leave after 2 years anyway in a "hard" Brexit.  If Parliament blocks triggering it then May will call an election at which the Tories will massively increase their majority based on current polls and push it through anyway.

That's not true. We can reverse A50 at anytime and remain.

stickyfiddle

Jalapeno said:

stickyfiddle said:

crunchman said:

Myranda said:

Fretwired said:

Myranda said:

Hopefully, this will mean that May will need to prove she has a plan by spelling it out, rather than parroting "Brexit means brexit" ... you really should try Prime Minister to avoid using the word you're trying to define in the definition. 

Keeping her plan to herself seems much more like not having a plan... and given our economy hinges on it we might like to know that our best interests are protected 

But you can't negotiate like that - a public discussion in parliament and then you go over to Brussels. They'll see you coming - you cannot negotiate a deal like Brexit in public. Trust me - Brexit is dead.

You can negotiate unless you plan on somehow blackmailing your counter parts...

And there's a difference between an outline of desired outcomes to the specifics and minutia... currently no plan of any sort is in evidence only "we'll get the best deal we can" well if we're offered a shit sandwich and nothing else it would still be the best deal we got... still not a good deal though.

It should be for parliament to decide what is a good deal... not one person who won't even say what she thinks a good deal looks like

It would be stupid to spell out in Parliament what you are trying to get in the negotiations.  May would say we want such and such.  All Europe would have to do is refuse the things May says she wants and then the remoaners in Parliament would try to block Brexit - until they lose their seats at the next election.  Meanwhile the whole process will drag on and on and on which won't be good for anyone.

To be honest, once article 50 is triggered we leave after 2 years anyway in a "hard" Brexit.  If Parliament blocks triggering it then May will call an election at which the Tories will massively increase their majority based on current polls and push it through anyway.

May can't call an election - it doesn't work like that any more.

If May makes iarticle50  a vote of Confidence and loses, she can I believe call a general election.

The article 50 vote itself wouldn't constitute a no-con though. That would have to be a separate motion moved after such a vote. Could still happen but I think it's very unlikely.

http://www.parliament.uk/site-information/glossary/motion-of-no-confidence/

digitalscream

Evilmags said:

Bunch of idiot lawyers thinking they have greater say than a majority referendum. Evil, democracy denying fuck wits seems about right. 

Erm...did you have a reading comprehension fail? All the decision today says is that the government can't do an end-run around the constitution, because it'd be breaking the law.

Fretwired said:

That's not true. We can reverse A50 at anytime and remain.

Where did you read that? To my knowledge, reversing A50 would require the agreement of all the EU states; any one of them could veto the whole thing, and it's fairly unlikely that we'd be able to persuade all of them given all the rhetoric involved.

Fretwired

digitalscream said:

Fretwired said:

That's not true. We can reverse A50 at anytime and remain.

Where did you read that? To my knowledge, reversing A50 would require the agreement of all the EU states; any one of them could veto the whole thing, and it's fairly unlikely that we'd be able to persuade all of them given all the rhetoric involved.

I published an article in the other thread from the lawyer that wrote it. It was published in today's Times.

The key bits:

Article 50 is not irrevocable once triggered, the author of the legal mechanism to take a nation out of the EU said today.

Lord Kerr of Kinlochard, the cross-bench peer who devised the key clause in the Lisbon Treaty, said that it would allow Britain to remain in the union even if the country initiates the process to leave.

Commenting on Article 50, he said: “It is not irrevocable. You can change your mind while the process is going on.

“During that period, if a country were to decide actually we don’t want to leave after all, everybody would be very cross about it being a waste of time. They might try to extract a political price but legally they couldn’t insist that you leave.”

Jalapeno

Fretwired said:

digitalscream said:

Fretwired said:

That's not true. We can reverse A50 at anytime and remain.

Where did you read that? To my knowledge, reversing A50 would require the agreement of all the EU states; any one of them could veto the whole thing, and it's fairly unlikely that we'd be able to persuade all of them given all the rhetoric involved.

I published an article in the other thread from the lawyer that wrote it. It was published in today's Times.

The key bits:

Article 50 is not irrevocable once triggered, the author of the legal mechanism to take a nation out of the EU said today.

Lord Kerr of Kinlochard, the cross-bench peer who devised the key clause in the Lisbon Treaty, said that it would allow Britain to remain in the union even if the country initiates the process to leave.

Commenting on Article 50, he said: “It is not irrevocable. You can change your mind while the process is going on.

“During that period, if a country were to decide actually we don’t want to leave after all, everybody would be very cross about it being a waste of time. They might try to extract a political price but legally they couldn’t insist that you leave.”

Was on R4 this morning too.  We can withdraw A50 anytime we like within the 2yrs.

digitalscream

Fretwired said:

digitalscream said:

Fretwired said:

That's not true. We can reverse A50 at anytime and remain.

Where did you read that? To my knowledge, reversing A50 would require the agreement of all the EU states; any one of them could veto the whole thing, and it's fairly unlikely that we'd be able to persuade all of them given all the rhetoric involved.

I published an article in the other thread from the lawyer that wrote it. It was published in today's Times.

The key bits:

Article 50 is not irrevocable once triggered, the author of the legal mechanism to take a nation out of the EU said today.

Lord Kerr of Kinlochard, the cross-bench peer who devised the key clause in the Lisbon Treaty, said that it would allow Britain to remain in the union even if the country initiates the process to leave.

Commenting on Article 50, he said: “It is not irrevocable. You can change your mind while the process is going on.

“During that period, if a country were to decide actually we don’t want to leave after all, everybody would be very cross about it being a waste of time. They might try to extract a political price but legally they couldn’t insist that you leave.”

Fair enough. I thought it needed the agreement of all the states, but canning the process half way through isn't actually mentioned in A50 itself:

http://www.lisbon-treaty.org/wcm/the-lisbon-treaty/treaty-on-european-union-and-comments/title-6-final-provisions/137-article-50.html

That means it's kind of open to interpretation and could go one of two ways - either the author is right, and everybody walks away with a scowl on their faces but we're all cool, or the EU decide to make an example of us and draw out discussions on what to do until the 2 years is up and we're out on our ass.

Let's face it, it's not in the EU's best interests to make it easy for states to change their minds, otherwise everyone's going to be chucking in their A50 notices in order to get a better deal than everyone else.

Fretwired

digitalscream said:

Fair enough. I thought it needed the agreement of all the states, but canning the process half way through isn't actually mentioned in A50 itself:

http://www.lisbon-treaty.org/wcm/the-lisbon-treaty/treaty-on-european-union-and-comments/title-6-final-provisions/137-article-50.html

That means it's kind of open to interpretation and could go one of two ways - either the author is right, and everybody walks away with a scowl on their faces but we're all cool, or the EU decide to make an example of us and draw out discussions on what to do until the 2 years is up and we're out on our ass.

Let's face it, it's not in the EU's best interests to make it easy for states to change their minds, otherwise everyone's going to be chucking in their A50 notices in order to get a better deal than everyone else.

The guy making the claim wrote the clause so I guess he knows what he's talking about.  Your link is just a high level summary. It's probably buried deep in a zillion page document.

digitalscream

Fretwired said:

digitalscream said:

Fair enough. I thought it needed the agreement of all the states, but canning the process half way through isn't actually mentioned in A50 itself:

http://www.lisbon-treaty.org/wcm/the-lisbon-treaty/treaty-on-european-union-and-comments/title-6-final-provisions/137-article-50.html

That means it's kind of open to interpretation and could go one of two ways - either the author is right, and everybody walks away with a scowl on their faces but we're all cool, or the EU decide to make an example of us and draw out discussions on what to do until the 2 years is up and we're out on our ass.

Let's face it, it's not in the EU's best interests to make it easy for states to change their minds, otherwise everyone's going to be chucking in their A50 notices in order to get a better deal than everyone else.

The guy making the claim wrote the clause so I guess he knows what he's talking about.  Your link is just a high level summary. It's probably buried deep in a zillion page document.

It really isn't - Article 50 genuinely is that brief and vague (presumably because they thought nobody would ever invoke it). It's on page 34 here:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/228848/7310.pdf

That's the consolidated text of all EU treaties as of the implementation of the Treaty of Lisbon.

HAL9000

Myranda said:

Hopefully, this will mean that May will need to prove she has a plan by spelling it out, rather than parroting "Brexit means brexit" ... you really should try Prime Minister to avoid using the word you're trying to define in the definition. 

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone. "It means just what I choose it to mean - neither more or less."

"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."

"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master - that's all."

Heartfeltdawn

digitalscream said:

It really isn't - Article 50 genuinely is that brief and vague (presumably because they thought nobody would ever invoke it). It's on page 34 here:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/228848/7310.pdf

That's the consolidated text of all EU treaties as of the implementation of the Treaty of Lisbon.

It's also possible to fit all of Article 50 on one piece of decent quality lavatory paper. 

5redlights

stickyfiddle said:

I am transferring a big chunk of a house deposit from sterling to dollars next week. This news couldn't have come at a better time

You may want to be able to move that again quickly on Tuesday night if you still need it! 

fretmeister

Evilmags said:

Bunch of idiot lawyers thinking they have greater say than a majority referendum. Evil, democracy denying fuck wits seems about right. 

You've already been proved wrong about that in the other thread.

By lawyers FOR the leaving side: in other words by your own side.

The super team of Queens Counsel paid for with no limits by the Treasury agreed during the trial that the courts were the proper place to resolve the argument.

If they thought there was even a 1% chance of arguing against the jurisdiction of the courts they would have done






Para 2: It is accepted by all sides.... etc.

Drew_TNBD

http://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/james-obrien-on-the-high-court-brexit-ruling/

stickyfiddle

5redlights said:

stickyfiddle said:

I am transferring a big chunk of a house deposit from sterling to dollars next week. This news couldn't have come at a better time

You may want to be able to move that again quickly on Tuesday night if you still need it! 

I can't see the dollar going *up*  after Tuesday whatever happens, so i'm not too worried!

Fretwired

Drew_TNBD said:

http://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/james-obrien-on-the-high-court-brexit-ruling/

That guy is an arsehole .. he thinks we live in a democracy .. that's a laugh for a start.

Sambostar

Yeah the pound is up, from a one day slump from 1:22 to 1:25 all because of a High Court Ruling. 

Yeah of course.

Rocker

Sambostar said:

Yeah the pound is up, from a one day slump from 1:22 to 1:25 all because of a High Court Ruling. 

Yeah of course.

Up what?