Amps That 'Bloom' - Which To Buy ?

Moe_Zambeek

^^ that sounds like gain-induced feedback...surely not that hard to achieve?

Nerine

Bloom, whilst largely being a completely nonsense term, I usually think of as a slightly softened note attack, which then fills out slightly. Imagine a flower bud opening filmed on a high speed camera, and then sped up. 
I would usually say this is a proponent of the Rectifier setup in the amp and some volume. 
My Two Rock, when wound up a bit, I would say "blooms". But it's a garbage term and I don't like it at all. 
I also believe it's absolutely to do with sag and compression.
Which most amps will do under the right circumstances. 
"bloom" to me suggests a specific envelope to the note, in terms of its attack, sustain, release and decay. 
Which is exactly what a compressor alters. 

Wazmeister

@Nerine - interesting thoughts mate...

For me, Ive experienced it on only a few amps; maybe its that Dumblesque/Trainwreck thing (and these are vague, subjective terms Im aware) which I personally hear. Its like a harmonic chime almost, soaring chords...

I guess Ive heard it in most Redplates Ive played, some Two Rock, some Matchless...

All subjective, as I said. I guess Im heading Redplate way again...

p90fool

@Nerine that's exactly what I thought it meant, a particular note envelope, especially when you dig in hard. 

I don't know why everyone seems to be talking about feedback-induced sustain. 

Nerine

@p90fool yeah, sustain into feedback is just basically volume, and near on any amplifier ever made will happily help resonate a guitar in such a way. Some perhaps more musically than others, but that's more down to the guitar than the amp. 

Wazmeister

Nerine said:

@p90fool yeah, sustain into feedback is just basically volume, and near on any amplifier ever made will happily help resonate a guitar in such a way. Some perhaps more musically than others, but that's more down to the guitar than the amp. 

I think it may be a touch more than just 'volume'; back to that intitial RP video with Chuck which I posted; the volumes on that CDS are not that loud. Its the link between the two volumes (and maybe the loop ??) that gets that sound, imho...

ToneControl

Wazmeister said:

Nerine said:

@p90fool yeah, sustain into feedback is just basically volume, and near on any amplifier ever made will happily help resonate a guitar in such a way. Some perhaps more musically than others, but that's more down to the guitar than the amp. 

I think it may be a touch more than just 'volume'; back to that intitial RP video with Chuck which I posted; the volumes on that CDS are not that loud. Its the link between the two volumes (and maybe the loop ??) that gets that sound, imho...

probably the peaks in EQ in the amp would make  more difference, unless  you are meaning gain

As I said before,  hollowbody Suhr and Anderson drop tops  do this much easier than solid bodies with clean sounds (at quieter volumes and gain levels)
Also thinlines  too. I like it with  full semis and hollowbodies too, but they are harder to control if you add more gain 

hywelg

Wazmeister said:

Nerine said:

@p90fool yeah, sustain into feedback is just basically volume, and near on any amplifier ever made will happily help resonate a guitar in such a way. Some perhaps more musically than others, but that's more down to the guitar than the amp. 

I think it may be a touch more than just 'volume'; back to that intitial RP video with Chuck which I posted; the volumes on that CDS are not that loud. Its the link between the two volumes (and maybe the loop ??) that gets that sound, imho...

Its is absolutely not entirely volume related. It is often, in the amps that are better at it, a controlled positive feedback created within the amp itself.

An amp whose gain structure is on, or slightly over, the point of being completely unstable (TW amps in particular) which are then subjected to certain lead dress techniques to limit the instability and render the amp playable. Ken Fisher was a master at being able to do that and it seems that his knowledge passed with him to the grave. Dumble amps are not designed to be unstable, instead there are certain lead dress techniques such as V1&2a cathode, V1&2b Anode wires being run adjacent to one another, which supposedly this affect the signal and gives rise to some interaction. There are other things going on in Dumbles that can lead to controlled feedback at really quite low volumes on some amps. HAD knew how to create it, some builders know how to create it but unsurprisingly when a builder finds out the magic  they suddenly stop sharing information!.

Wazmeister

hywelg said:

Wazmeister said:

Nerine said:

@p90fool yeah, sustain into feedback is just basically volume, and near on any amplifier ever made will happily help resonate a guitar in such a way. Some perhaps more musically than others, but that's more down to the guitar than the amp. 

I think it may be a touch more than just 'volume'; back to that intitial RP video with Chuck which I posted; the volumes on that CDS are not that loud. Its the link between the two volumes (and maybe the loop ??) that gets that sound, imho...

Its is absolutely not entirely volume related. It is often, in the amps that are better at it, a controlled positive feedback created within the amp itself.

An amp whose gain structure is on, or slightly over, the point of being completely unstable (TW amps in particular) which are then subjected to certain lead dress techniques to limit the instability and render the amp playable. Ken Fisher was a master at being able to do that and it seems that his knowledge passed with him to the grave. Dumble amps are not designed to be unstable, instead there are certain lead dress techniques such as V1&2a cathode, V1&2b Anode wires being run adjacent to one another, which supposedly this affect the signal and gives rise to some interaction. There are other things going on in Dumbles that can lead to controlled feedback at really quite low volumes on some amps. HAD knew how to create it, some builders know how to create it but unsurprisingly when a builder finds out the magic  they suddenly stop sharing information!.

Bingo. This man knows his stuff...

Moe_Zambeek

It's the crystal lettuces again, isn't it

Wazmeister

Moe_Zambeek said:

It's the crystal lettuces again, isn't it

Man, I bet that Matchless of your blooms at volume ! Gorgeous amp too 

Moe_Zambeek

I'm going to have to investigate! If I do it at home though, the room rattles so much you wouldn't hear the bloom

PolarityMan

Bloom is fucking stupid, it makes you sound out of time. You can get it out of a lot of alot when running the clean channel way too loud then using a distortion pedal.

i suspect a lot of guitarists like it because it delays their transient behind the rest of the bands giving the appearance that guitar is higher in the mix.  Which is pretty damned selfish thing yo want.

timmysoft

I prefer when a guitar sound:
1) Bremp
2) Frim
3) Gridge

Nerine

So your saying that how the leads are dressed internally dictates how the guitar feeds back, or how the amp makes the guitar feedback? 

Sorry. I don't buy that at all. 

The EQ curve and settings will
make a difference as you'll be accentuating and cutting different amounts of the fundamental and, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th etc order harmonics. If you have a lot of low end dialled in, you're more likely to resonate the lower strings on the guitar, for example. 

But that will also depend on the construction of the guitar, its resonance in simple and more complex frequency specific terms, the wood used, tuning, etc etc. 

Not to mention where you stand in relation to the amplifier and how it's output, in conjunction with the room, has an affect on the amount and harmonic content of feedback. I'm sure everyone's done it. Sustaining note for days which has developed into feedback, shift your body, note changes. 

Or are you talking about the negative feedback in the power section of an amplifier. 

I also dont see how an fx loop is the key here.. 

People keep mentioning Trainwrecks etc. Did they have fx loops?? 

I think if you're searching for an amp that "blooms" you could be a while. 

Also, the clip of the Redplate to me, the note attack sounds a little like mic clipping/auto adjusting for level. 

Could be totally wrong. 

Im lost. 

Nerine

Ok. I've just listened again. The sound from 5.46 onwards in the Redplate demo clip from the amp show, is the sound of compression. My guess is from the microphones they are using to capture the audio. 

I work with compressors daily. That's what they do to the sound of guitar amplifiers. Especially clean tones. 

Have a listen to the start of "Burn It To The Ground" by Nickelback. 
That "thwup" sound is compression added to the signal. Not the guitar amp. Overdone for effect in this case. 

Nerine

But "bloom" to me, isn't the insistence of an amplifier to cause the guitar or individual notes to feed back. 

in my experience, there is only volume that can cause that. The very nature of feedback means the sound waves need to be of a certain magnitude to excite the strings. 
An ebow does it by electromagnets as an aside. 

Does lead dress alter the tone of an amplifier? Probably. Does it create the all important "bloom"? Probably not. 

Since it can't really be defined, it's moot. 

However, I'm now going to go research "amplifier bloom" and see what the consensus says. 

Sorry for thr multiple posts. 

Its all very confusing. Not trying to be argumentative either. That's just my writing style... 

olafgarten

Nerine said:

Bloom, whilst largely being a completely nonsense term, I usually think of as a slightly softened note attack, which then fills out slightly. Imagine a flower bud opening filmed on a high speed camera, and then sped up. 
I would usually say this is a proponent of the Rectifier setup in the amp and some volume. 
My Two Rock, when wound up a bit, I would say "blooms". But it's a garbage term and I don't like it at all. 
I also believe it's absolutely to do with sag and compression.
Which most amps will do under the right circumstances. 
"bloom" to me suggests a specific envelope to the note, in terms of its attack, sustain, release and decay. 
Which is exactly what a compressor alters. 

Just wanted to say that you don't want a high speed camera to capture a flower blooming, you want the exact opposite. A high speed camera would give you loads of frames and most would be thrown away when sped up. 

Wazmeister

Man, I hope my next amp sounds as aggressive as some of these threads !!  

Im happy to use stupid terms in the search for snake-oil amp bliss

ToneControl

hywelg said:

Wazmeister said:

Nerine said:

@p90fool yeah, sustain into feedback is just basically volume, and near on any amplifier ever made will happily help resonate a guitar in such a way. Some perhaps more musically than others, but that's more down to the guitar than the amp. 

I think it may be a touch more than just 'volume'; back to that intitial RP video with Chuck which I posted; the volumes on that CDS are not that loud. Its the link between the two volumes (and maybe the loop ??) that gets that sound, imho...

Its is absolutely not entirely volume related. It is often, in the amps that are better at it, a controlled positive feedback created within the amp itself.

An amp whose gain structure is on, or slightly over, the point of being completely unstable (TW amps in particular) which are then subjected to certain lead dress techniques to limit the instability and render the amp playable. Ken Fisher was a master at being able to do that and it seems that his knowledge passed with him to the grave. Dumble amps are not designed to be unstable, instead there are certain lead dress techniques such as V1&2a cathode, V1&2b Anode wires being run adjacent to one another, which supposedly this affect the signal and gives rise to some interaction. There are other things going on in Dumbles that can lead to controlled feedback at really quite low volumes on some amps. HAD knew how to create it, some builders know how to create it but unsurprisingly when a builder finds out the magic  they suddenly stop sharing information!.

I'm not really sure about this
AFAIK the lead dressing  is normally to cut down on hum, but certainly there some EMFs to avoid 

I am not aware of secret techniques that no one else could possibly match

Where does the idea about  Trainwrecks being  unstable come from?
The TW clone I had was very quiet but with huge gain:  same as the demos  of TWs on Youtube

The  Dumble clones I've owned varied a lot  based on the  subtype, but  the  blackface ones were always  like an clearer and more powerful Twin, but with a clever  valve OD with tone shaping built  into the amp, and all the  sustained dumble demos I've heard have been based on  the OD, or on  the use of a semi acoustic guitar

There are some excellent amp designs out there,  but I haven't seen  any evidence that  specific designers had build techniques that would affect  acoustic feedback, or that no one else could reproduce