Terry Morgan 59 Reissue

NelsonP

Is this Sir Terry Morgan?

Ossyrocks

Jalapeno said:

@guitars4you did the guitar that started all this pass muster ?

I never saw the one Mark had, but others I have seen have been truly remarkable guitars and closer to the originals than anything Gibson has produced recently.

Rob

impmann

Sporky said:

impmann said:

I think some folks need to take a step back and realise that there are worse things in this world. 

I doubt there's a single person here who thinks that fake Gibsons are on a moral par with assault, let alone murder, rape or terrorism.

Who do you think is making that mistake?

Actually, Spork, there are few keyboard warriors on this forum who get *really* uppity about logos, fakes and what not. Frankly, I don't give a flying fuck if someone fits a decal to a partcaster and sells it onto someone else as a replica and then a few sales down the line it gets passed off as legit. I'm not a policeman, and a few guys on here need to realise that neither are they...

guitars4you

Jalapeno said:

@guitars4you did the guitar that started all this pass muster ?

did you mean was it a great guitar ? - I've sold a few Tom Murphy LP's over the years - Strange they have the same initials - I've sold a few Collectors Choice LP's - I've sold a few Custom or Historic Collection LP's and it is fair to say that the TM was a mighty fine LP both with regard to how it looks, plays and sounds - If I said it was better than the Gibson Guitars I've played then maybe a touch unfair to those who have purchased those Gibson LP's from me and to be truthful any LP that suits one person won't suit another - But yes it ranks very highly - Yet this blog is now on its 12th page and without going back over all postings then I think you are the first to ask was it a good guitar ?

it was sold to a respected FB member who later purchased another TM 59 so that is some statement in its own right - I know of a few other FB members who own or have owned a TM as well and I'm sure each would vouch for the quality of the instrument

At the time I had a number of PM's from interested parties and I still get PM's from potential buyers today - I think this blog has scored quite highly on google searches - So rightly or wrongly a market exist

Bridgehouse

impmann said:

Sporky said:

impmann said:

I think some folks need to take a step back and realise that there are worse things in this world. 

I doubt there's a single person here who thinks that fake Gibsons are on a moral par with assault, let alone murder, rape or terrorism.

Who do you think is making that mistake?

Actually, Spork, there are few keyboard warriors on this forum who get *really* uppity about logos, fakes and what not. Frankly, I don't give a flying fuck if someone fits a decal to a partcaster and sells it onto someone else as a replica and then a few sales down the line it gets passed off as legit. I'm not a policeman, and a few guys on here need to realise that neither are they...

Actually I have a vested interest in this debate, and many fB members do.

I invested a lot of money into a 64 Precision - and took time and effort to validate it and be sure of what I was spending my hard earned money on. Any level of suspicion and I would have walked away.

I see plenty of people posting threads asking for advice on lots of different guitars and basses - is it a refin?,is it genuine parts?, is it worth the money? etc 

Usually, they are called out for what they are and the consensus is generally it's a bad thing and a refin 60s strat passed off as genuine, or a Telecaster with non original parts passed off as all original is not good at all.

My problem with the TM issue is his use of the Gibson logo which if given airtime and respect starts to offer some legitimacy to the idea of faking. I have no problem with exact copies - but with something that denotes it obviously as such - i.e. Not the Gibson logo.

I don't want people out there thinking "TM is well respected, so I'll do the same and produce a load of 'replicas' to make some money"

If the market gets flooded with fakes, it will make the whole thing more difficult for genuine buyers and just isn't right. 

Sassafras

I think a way round this would be if Terry Morgan applied a hologram of his smiling face to the back of the headstock.
The fact he greatly resembles Les Paul should be neither here nor there.

mgaw

impmann said:

Sporky said:

impmann said:

I think some folks need to take a step back and realise that there are worse things in this world. 

I doubt there's a single person here who thinks that fake Gibsons are on a moral par with assault, let alone murder, rape or terrorism.

Who do you think is making that mistake?

Actually, Spork, there are few keyboard warriors on this forum who get *really* uppity about logos, fakes and what not. Frankly, I don't give a flying fuck if someone fits a decal to a partcaster and sells it onto someone else as a replica and then a few sales down the line it gets passed off as legit. I'm not a policeman, and a few guys on here need to realise that neither are they...

that only holds true if you aren't the poor purchaser of a "genuine" vintage guitar which turns out to be fake, you would be squealing then no doubt, and taking your attitude to its logicak conclusion doesnt make for a pleasant place does it, twat:)

impmann

mgaw said:

impmann said:

Sporky said:

impmann said:

I think some folks need to take a step back and realise that there are worse things in this world. 

I doubt there's a single person here who thinks that fake Gibsons are on a moral par with assault, let alone murder, rape or terrorism.

Who do you think is making that mistake?

Actually, Spork, there are few keyboard warriors on this forum who get *really* uppity about logos, fakes and what not. Frankly, I don't give a flying fuck if someone fits a decal to a partcaster and sells it onto someone else as a replica and then a few sales down the line it gets passed off as legit. I'm not a policeman, and a few guys on here need to realise that neither are they...

that only holds true if you aren't the poor purchaser of a "genuine" vintage guitar which turns out to be fake, you would be squealing then no doubt, and taking your attitude to its logicak conclusion doesnt make for a pleasant place does it, twat:)

Thanks for the name calling - helpful.

I've been caught out by a Fender that wasn't. But equally, I've been caught out selling a Fender to someone that an online  'expert' claimed wasn't legit. Both were awkward situations and both were resolved but there are too many people who think they know better getting involved.

Frankly, if someone is dumb enough to buy a guitar costing $100,000+ without getting a second opinion then threads like this aren't going to protect them either...

Sporky

impmann said:

I don't give a flying fuck if someone fits a decal to a partcaster and sells it onto someone else as a replica and then a few sales down the line it gets passed off as legit.

That's fine. I'd guess this has very little impact on your life.

Other people do care - that's fine too. Even if it has no direct impact on them.

But you seem to be the most agitated person in the discussion.

impmann

Sporky said:

impmann said:

I don't give a flying fuck if someone fits a decal to a partcaster and sells it onto someone else as a replica and then a few sales down the line it gets passed off as legit.

That's fine. I'd guess this has very little impact on your life.

Other people do care - that's fine too. Even if it has no direct impact on them.

But you seem to be the most agitated person in the discussion.

Nope not agitated, I'm totally chilled chap. :-) But I have a different opinion.

Y'see, threads like this legistimise the abuse honest sellers get on eBay and here when selling things and someone who "knows better" who has no interest in buying contacts you to tell you something is a 'fake'. Having been on the receiving end of this, its actually pretty nasty - especially if the individual concerned is totally in the wrong, and when this is pointed out they get arsey. Or they report it to ebay - ebay believe them to be the expert and remove the advert, and you get a 'strike' against your name... ask me how I know this. The individual concerned, I'm sure, is a member of this forum...

Each to their own, but frankly, if you aren't interested in buying something why get involved in something like that?

Bridgehouse

Sporky said:

impmann said:

I don't give a flying fuck if someone fits a decal to a partcaster and sells it onto someone else as a replica and then a few sales down the line it gets passed off as legit.

That's fine. I'd guess this has very little impact on your life.

Other people do care - that's fine too. Even if it has no direct impact on them.

But you seem to be the most agitated person in the discussion.

Agreed.

@impmann, if you don't see the point to threads like this, and us keyboard warriors are getting you wound up, then move on and just don't read the thread...

Alrernatively, if you want to share an opinion then please do, but don't assume that we all either have no idea what we are talking about or need to be legal experts/policemen before we can have an opinion on it.

Bridgehouse

impmann said:

Sporky said:

impmann said:

I don't give a flying fuck if someone fits a decal to a partcaster and sells it onto someone else as a replica and then a few sales down the line it gets passed off as legit.

That's fine. I'd guess this has very little impact on your life.

Other people do care - that's fine too. Even if it has no direct impact on them.

But you seem to be the most agitated person in the discussion.

Nope not agitated, I'm totally chilled chap. :-) But I have a different opinion.

Y'see, threads like this legistimise the abuse honest sellers get on eBay and here when selling things and someone who "knows better" who has no interest in buying contacts you to tell you something is a 'fake'. Having been on the receiving end of this, its actually pretty nasty - especially if the individual concerned is totally in the wrong, and when this is pointed out they get arsey. Or they report it to ebay - ebay believe them to be the expert and remove the advert, and you get a 'strike' against your name... ask me how I know this. The individual concerned, I'm sure, is a member of this forum...

Each to their own, but frankly, if you aren't interested in buying something why get involved in something like that?

I don't think this thread is as you describe it.

A self professed expert getting uppity and reporting listings is a different issue. Personally I don't think anyone can make an opinion on a guitar unless you see it in person. Photos can always be deceptions (even with Chibsons). I agree that randomly reporting stuff is wrong unless there's in person validity, in which case presumably they are interested in buying.

This thread is about someone making something that nominally clashes with trademarks, legislation and the law, and whether it's worth buying or not. In my opinion, this is quite different.

peteri

Bridgehouse said:

impmann said:

Sporky said:

impmann said:

I think some folks need to take a step back and realise that there are worse things in this world. 

I doubt there's a single person here who thinks that fake Gibsons are on a moral par with assault, let alone murder, rape or terrorism.

Who do you think is making that mistake?

Actually, Spork, there are few keyboard warriors on this forum who get *really* uppity about logos, fakes and what not. Frankly, I don't give a flying fuck if someone fits a decal to a partcaster and sells it onto someone else as a replica and then a few sales down the line it gets passed off as legit. I'm not a policeman, and a few guys on here need to realise that neither are they...

Actually I have a vested interest in this debate, and many fB members do.

I invested a lot of money into a 64 Precision - and took time and effort to validate it and be sure of what I was spending my hard earned money on. Any level of suspicion and I would have walked away.

I see plenty of people posting threads asking for advice on lots of different guitars and basses - is it a refin?,is it genuine parts?, is it worth the money? etc 

Usually, they are called out for what they are and the consensus is generally it's a bad thing and a refin 60s strat passed off as genuine, or a Telecaster with non original parts passed off as all original is not good at all.

My problem with the TM issue is his use of the Gibson logo which if given airtime and respect starts to offer some legitimacy to the idea of faking. I have no problem with exact copies - but with something that denotes it obviously as such - i.e. Not the Gibson logo.

I don't want people out there thinking "TM is well respected, so I'll do the same and produce a load of 'replicas' to make some money"

If the market gets flooded with fakes, it will make the whole thing more difficult for genuine buyers and just isn't right. 

For me this is the key point and Wisdom awarded!

I have three vintage guitars, one bought from this young man and for me this is the reason right here.

Recently I played a 'replica' Tele in a guitar shop in Dublin, I posted questions about it on here. It was a fine guitar, not quite as acoustically lively as the real old wood guitars I have - but very, very good and certainly it's what's got me started on my current Tele hunt.

I nearly, nearly bought it.

The reason I didn't, because the builder had put a Fender decal on it - for me that devalued the whole thing, the builder wasn't proud enough of his work to say - here's a great guitar play it, they wanted to make it look like something it wasn't.

That's not right.

Everytime I played it or showed it to someone I'd have had to explain 'it's not a real Fender', and whenever I sold it - I'd have similar hassles, and potentially (actually scrub that - very real) issues in selling it in some quarters. Because it's a fake - and that has legal ramifications.

This isn't JUST a moral discussion, this is also a legal one - you don't have to agree with it or not, it's a fact.

If you're a talented luthier, either make your own designs, or make reproductions - that's fine. But make it clear that's what they are, then we have more wonderful instruments to play and trade.

It would be tragic for guitars to be destroyed at some point in the future because of a poxy decal on the headstock, that may happen

crunchman

Bridgehouse said:

A self professed expert getting uppity and reporting listings is a different issue. Personally I don't think anyone can make an opinion on a guitar unless you see it in person. Photos can always be deceptions (even with Chibsons). I agree that randomly reporting stuff is wrong unless there's in person validity, in which case presumably they are interested in buying.

There are some obvious things you can tell are wrong from even a poor photo.  For example a "Gibson" with 3 screws on the truss rod cover.

If there is obvious fakery that is not just down to camera angles then I have no problem with someone calling it out.

Sporky

impmann said:

Y'see, threads like this legistimise the abuse honest sellers get on eBay

I don't think they do. No-one's suggested that at all in this thread (that I've seen, at least).

StuartMac290

Fuck it, I want a Terry Morgan now. 

I'd need to know it was genuine though. 

usedtobe

Sporky said:

impmann said:

I think some folks need to take a step back and realise that there are worse things in this world. 

I doubt there's a single person here who thinks that fake Gibsons are on a moral par with assault, let alone murder, rape or terrorism.

Who do you think is making that mistake?

I'm not! 

usedtobe

I actually got all sorts of shit for listing a genuine sg special, the ones with the ebony board (1999?) for sale on a Facebook group. The same Facebook group I'd bought it on, previously.. lol

WezV

impmann said:

 

Y'see, threads like this legistimise the abuse honest sellers get on eBay and here when selling things and someone who "knows better" who has no interest in buying contacts you to tell you something is a 'fake'. Having been on the receiving end of this, its actually pretty nasty - especially if the individual concerned is totally in the wrong, and when this is pointed out they get arsey.

I have had this a few times now

One with an unusual regal resonator I said was likely from 1937, someone insisted it couldn't be prior to 1942.  I let him know I welcomed his input and tried to discuss the features I used to date it to 1937.  He made it clear he wasn't interested in discussing it, or buying it,  just wanted to let me know I was being dishonest in my listing. 

One was a Yamano 335 ( a similar one was for sale here recently), where many internet experts decreed it to be "too risky" because of Gibson including a few unusual features on a special run.

We are seeing the same on many threads here recently when someone asks about a slightly unusual Gibson.   Quite often they get a few "too risky"  responses before someone sensible confirms it is totally genuine

guitars4you

WezV said:

impmann said:

 

Y'see, threads like this legistimise the abuse honest sellers get on eBay and here when selling things and someone who "knows better" who has no interest in buying contacts you to tell you something is a 'fake'. Having been on the receiving end of this, its actually pretty nasty - especially if the individual concerned is totally in the wrong, and when this is pointed out they get arsey.

I have had this a few times now

One with an unusual regal resonator I said was likely from 1937, someone insisted it couldn't be prior to 1942.  I let him know I welcomed his input and tried to discuss the features I used to date it to 1937.  He made it clear he wasn't interested in discussing it, or buying it,  just wanted to let me know I was being dishonest in my listing. 

One was a Yamano 335 ( a similar one was for sale here recently), where many internet experts decreed it to be "too risky" because of Gibson including a few unusual features on a special run.

We are seeing the same on many threads here recently when someone asks about a slightly unusual Gibson.   Quite often they get a few "too risky"  responses before someone sensible confirms it is totally genuine

the internet has made us all 'experts' -  The illusion of knowledge eh ? - can be a dangerous situation