He's back to start a war on brexit

Brize

Axe_meister said:

I wonder if the leave vote would have been higher without the likes of Nigel Farage/Gove/Boris.
I was teetering on the brink, of leave, but because of  these rather deplorable characters (and others in the UKIP movement) I went with remain. Without them I think we may have had fewer "silent leavers"

Farage, definitely. He forced the referendum, but he should have stayed out of the campaign - he surely did more harm than good to the Leave cause.

ICBM

Axe_meister said:

I wonder if the leave vote would have been higher without the likes of Nigel Farage/Gove/Boris.
I was teetering on the brink, of leave, but because of  these rather deplorable characters (and others in the UKIP movement) I went with remain. Without them I think we may have had fewer "silent leavers"

Not sure. I'm certain the Remain vote would have been higher without Cameron and Osborne though - not to mention Juncker and Tusk poking the fire in what often seemed like purposely counterproductive ways.

Brize

Myranda said:

Not sure if the sentiment has been voiced... but in the past I was quite strongly remain... now that Tony Blair has started to campaign to remain (really good timing TB... maybe think about campaigning before the vote, not after) I'm thinking that it must be wrong to remain... 

It was fine when real people were saying remain... but that smug faced fecker saying remain makes me wonder if I was somehow wrong

Did Bob Geldof not serve the same purpose?

Brize

ICBM said:

Axe_meister said:

I wonder if the leave vote would have been higher without the likes of Nigel Farage/Gove/Boris.
I was teetering on the brink, of leave, but because of  these rather deplorable characters (and others in the UKIP movement) I went with remain. Without them I think we may have had fewer "silent leavers"

Not sure. I'm certain the Remain vote would have been higher without Cameron and Osborne though - not to mention Juncker and Tusk poking the fire in what often seemed like purposely counterproductive ways.

Did you see the debate where Nicola Sturgeon, Angela Eagle and Amber Rudd were arguing for Remain? That probably did more for the Leave campaign than anything else.

ICBM

Brize said:

Did you see the debate where Nicola Sturgeon, Angela Eagle and Amber Rudd were arguing for Remain? That probably did more for the Leave campaign than anything else.

No, I missed that one… probably fortunately. I actually watched only one, I think - the one with Ruth Davidson for Remain - and only part of it at that. I tried to ignore them as much as possible, since I thought they were neither thorough or informative with any of the arguments.

Basically I think what the politicians seem unable to grasp is that they're all so wildly unpopular and deeply untrusted that any time any of them opens their mouths their opponents gain a percentage point, and it's just a race to the bottom.

Cirrus

Brize said:

So, somebody who voted Remain, and who is arguing for 'a halt of all Brexit movements', is impartial? Yeah, right. 

How did you vote again?

Brize

Cirrus said:

Brize said:

So, somebody who voted Remain, and who is arguing for 'a halt of all Brexit movements', is impartial? Yeah, right. 

How did you vote again?

To Leave, naturally. But I never claimed to be anything other than a rabid Brexiter.

Bridgehouse

Brize said:

Cirrus said:

Brize said:

So, somebody who voted Remain, and who is arguing for 'a halt of all Brexit movements', is impartial? Yeah, right. 

How did you vote again?

To Leave, naturally. But I never claimed to be anything other than a rabid Brexiter.

I thought rabies was confined to mainland Europe?

Brize

Bridgehouse said:

Brize said:

Cirrus said:

Brize said:

So, somebody who voted Remain, and who is arguing for 'a halt of all Brexit movements', is impartial? Yeah, right. 

How did you vote again?

To Leave, naturally. But I never claimed to be anything other than a rabid Brexiter.

I thought rabies was confined to mainland Europe?

Well, I am a cultural Europhile - I just find the EU very difficult to love.

Heartfeltdawn

Brize said:

ICBM said:

I think you can also be impartial even though you have a personal view

So, somebody who voted Remain, and who is arguing for 'a halt of all Brexit movements', is impartial? Yeah, right. 

Go back to my post here please:

http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/comment/1388458/#Comment_1388458

You'll see that I put forward the idea of halting all Brexit movements and making a final decision on in or out of Europe at the next General Election rather than having a second referendum as suggested by Tony Blair. A second referendum would be a waste of time and more of. A second referendum will not happen so it was mere hypothesis. 

I'll put this in bold so it gets through: 

I was not arguing for a halt in all Brexit movements as things stand right now. I have no problem with the referendum result.  

The criticisms I made of the referendum process were about the actual process, not the result. That the process was flawed is unarguable given the court involvement. 

Brize said:

It's clear that Mr 'I would support a halt of all Brexit movements' @Heartfeltdawn is anything but impartial. There's nothing more tedious than someone refusing to answer a straight question.

Oh I don't know. Someone who either hasn't or can't read something properly, who misses what was actually said, and who then jumps to a whole series of conclusions rapidly is rather moribund as well. Being asked a loaded question by someone with their own prejudices is also prime snoozing material. 

So there's me for you. I have no truck with the result, simply the way the process was organised. 

Brize

Heartfeltdawn said:

So there's me for you. I have no truck with the result, simply the way the process was organised. 

Pure obfuscation. It was a straight in/out referendum with the majority to win, however small. Not very sophisticated, but everyone knew the rules. The court involvement was a sideshow that made absolutely no difference apart from dotting the Is and crossing the Ts (and wasting a lot of time and money).

There was nothing flawed about the mechanics of the referendum - certainly nothing that a general election would fix.

Bridgehouse

Brize said:

Heartfeltdawn said:

So there's me for you. I have no truck with the result, simply the way the process was organised. 

Pure obfuscation. It was a straight in/out referendum with the majority to win, however small. Not very sophisticated, but everyone knew the rules. The court involvement was a sideshow that made absolutely no difference apart from dotting the Is and crossing the Ts (and wasting a lot of time and money).

There was nothing flawed about the mechanics of the referendum - certainly nothing that a general election would fix.

You have to admit though, there was some proper piss poor campaigning on both sides....

Heartfeltdawn

Brize said:

Heartfeltdawn said:

So there's me for you. I have no truck with the result, simply the way the process was organised. 

Pure obfuscation. It was a straight in/out referendum with the majority to win, however small. Not very sophisticated, but everyone knew the rules. The court involvement was a sideshow that made absolutely no difference apart from dotting the Is and crossing the Ts (and wasting a lot of time and money).

There was nothing flawed about the mechanics of the referendum - certainly nothing that a general election would fix.

Uh huh. 

Heartfeltdawn

Bridgehouse said:

You have to admit though, there was some proper piss poor campaigning on both sides....

I thought my argument was quite good. Oh, wait... 

Brize

Bridgehouse said:

Brize said:

Heartfeltdawn said:

So there's me for you. I have no truck with the result, simply the way the process was organised. 

Pure obfuscation. It was a straight in/out referendum with the majority to win, however small. Not very sophisticated, but everyone knew the rules. The court involvement was a sideshow that made absolutely no difference apart from dotting the Is and crossing the Ts (and wasting a lot of time and money).

There was nothing flawed about the mechanics of the referendum - certainly nothing that a general election would fix.

You have to admit though, there was some proper piss poor campaigning on both sides....

Yes, difficult to argue with that point.

Brize

Heartfeltdawn said:

Uh huh. 

People are moaning about 52% not being enough of a majority and you want to put the issue to a general election where the winning party is unlikely to poll more than 40% of the vote?

Motorhate

vale said:

the very first & fundamental thing to be clear on with regard to brexit is that the leave majority was less than 4%.
which means that a swing of 2% (miniscule in terms of political swings) would make leave & remain 50/50.
basically (allowing for small change) half of those who voted wanted to stay & half wanted to remain.
if you are 52%/48% decided on something, you are basically undecided or confused.

http://ichef-1.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/0E22/production/_90081630_leaveresult.jpg
let's be really honest about that. talk of a collective & monolothic single-minded 'will of the people' is shite. it's a fantasy. leavers are in denial (lying to themselves & others) about that because it suits them, not because it is the case.

the biggest problem for democracy is that it's a fantasy the two major parties (& their filthy ukip appendage) are indugling rather than challenging.

it is certainly the job of the opposition to challenge it, & my disappointment with corbyn & labour on this is immense. but also the job of the government to accept & address it, since they are democratically obliged to serve the best interests of the entire country.
not just the 52% percent of the 70% of the 100% eleigible electorate who voted.

so while i don't like blair & i thought new labour was a betrayal of labour core values -
in my opinion they let neo-liberalism run riot, fiddling around with with tax credits etc, instead of addressing the fundamentals that underpin inequality -
i am behind anyone calling the government & opposition to account for indulging this ongoing 'will of the people' lie.

politics is weird & sometime you end up in strange & even perverse alliances in order to get the best result, but i'm behind blair on this issue & in this campaign. freaky but so.
i would rather corbyn was doing it, but he isn't, so i am obliged to take what is on the table.

importantly, blair is not alone, this is not blair's campaign or blair's argument. it's a public campaign & public argument that has been going on since june. if you are a remainer & committed to blocking brexit you may well have already been campaigning & arguing ever since & should continue to do so, if you really have the courage of your convictions.

but, flawed as blair is, one can't deny he has two political strengths.

the first is that he can really talk the talk. he's a smooth & persuasive talker & still very popular with a lot of the public. in spite of everything, he can still get through to the general public in that intimate one-to-one 'sincere' way only the most successful (good & bad) politicians can.

& second is that many people associate better (pre-crash) times with him. that's a big factor on the subconscious-irrational instinct level. we saw how big a part nostalgia (remember albion etc!) played in the leave campaign. well nostalgia cuts both ways & blair presses that 'good times' button for many.
if you did well during blair & new labour's stay & have struggled since 2010 (the tory dark ages) than he speaks to you & for you in a way they don't & can't.

so interesting times. weird times.

What?

Motorhate

vale said:

the very first & fundamental thing to be clear on with regard to brexit is that the leave majority was less than 4%.
which means that a swing of 2% (miniscule in terms of political swings) would make leave & remain 50/50.
basically (allowing for small change) half of those who voted wanted to stay & half wanted to remain.
if you are 52%/48% decided on something, you are basically undecided or confused.

http://ichef-1.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/0E22/production/_90081630_leaveresult.jpg
let's be really honest about that. talk of a collective & monolothic single-minded 'will of the people' is shite. it's a fantasy. leavers are in denial (lying to themselves & others) about that because it suits them, not because it is the case.

the biggest problem for democracy is that it's a fantasy the two major parties (& their filthy ukip appendage) are indugling rather than challenging.

it is certainly the job of the opposition to challenge it, & my disappointment with corbyn & labour on this is immense. but also the job of the government to accept & address it, since they are democratically obliged to serve the best interests of the entire country.
not just the 52% percent of the 70% of the 100% eleigible electorate who voted.

so while i don't like blair & i thought new labour was a betrayal of labour core values -
in my opinion they let neo-liberalism run riot, fiddling around with with tax credits etc, instead of addressing the fundamentals that underpin inequality -
i am behind anyone calling the government & opposition to account for indulging this ongoing 'will of the people' lie.

politics is weird & sometime you end up in strange & even perverse alliances in order to get the best result, but i'm behind blair on this issue & in this campaign. freaky but so.
i would rather corbyn was doing it, but he isn't, so i am obliged to take what is on the table.

importantly, blair is not alone, this is not blair's campaign or blair's argument. it's a public campaign & public argument that has been going on since june. if you are a remainer & committed to blocking brexit you may well have already been campaigning & arguing ever since & should continue to do so, if you really have the courage of your convictions.

but, flawed as blair is, one can't deny he has two political strengths.

the first is that he can really talk the talk. he's a smooth & persuasive talker & still very popular with a lot of the public. in spite of everything, he can still get through to the general public in that intimate one-to-one 'sincere' way only the most successful (good & bad) politicians can.

& second is that many people associate better (pre-crash) times with him. that's a big factor on the subconscious-irrational instinct level. we saw how big a part nostalgia (remember albion etc!) played in the leave campaign. well nostalgia cuts both ways & blair presses that 'good times' button for many.
if you did well during blair & new labour's stay & have struggled since 2010 (the tory dark ages) than he speaks to you & for you in a way they don't & can't.

so interesting times. weird times.

What?

Heartfeltdawn

Brize said:

Heartfeltdawn said:

Uh huh. 

People are moaning about 52% not being enough of a majority and you want to put the issue to a general election where the winning party is unlikely to poll more than 40% of the vote?

Sure. It's the kind of bullshit us crazy impartial motherfuckers enjoy. 

Evilmags

Polls have Tories on 43% Labour on 26%. Give Corbyn another two years and they could have the Tories at 50%