He's back to start a war on brexit

marantz1300

marantz1300 said:

tory 17 year unbroken rule
sell off the water gas and electric
millions out of work
decimate manufacturing
close the coal mines
steel 
ship building
car industry
two ressions
negative equity
have to pay for dentist optition
poll tax 
without a labour governent
areas of the country with no work putting peoplr on benifits cradle to grave

they did it ALL on their own

These are facts.

Maybe you have "alternative facts".

Bridgehouse

marantz1300 said:

marantz1300 said:

tory 17 year unbroken rule
sell off the water gas and electric
millions out of work
decimate manufacturing
close the coal mines
steel 
ship building
car industry
two ressions
negative equity
have to pay for dentist optition
poll tax 
without a labour governent
areas of the country with no work putting peoplr on benifits cradle to grave

they did it ALL on their own

These are facts.

Maybe you have "alternative facts".

Alternate fact:

You've never had it so good! Now get back to your subservient life and leave us ruling classes alone...

Brize

marantz1300 said:

These are facts.

Maybe you have "alternative facts".

All I know is that my family is £10k a year worse off thanks to George Osborne's changes to dividend taxation. The increases in Insurance Premium Tax (which has doubled in 19 months) haven't helped either.

Your political views are dogmatic and stuck in the 1980s.

ronnyb

Brize said:

marantz1300 said:

tory 17 year unbroken rule
sell off the water gas and electric
millions out of work
decimate manufacturing
close the coal mines
steel 
ship building
car industry
two ressions
negative equity
have to pay for dentist optition
poll tax 
without a labour governent
areas of the country with no work putting peoplr on benifits cradle to grave

they did it ALL on their own

Yes I remember Thatcher well. Everything was tickety boo till she became prime minister. Well tickety boo ish. That is apart from the 3 day week. Railways not running. Nurses and Ambulance drivers on strike. Rubbish piled in the streets. Dead bodies in factories because the cemeteries were being picketed. There were contingency plans to bury the rotting corpses at sea. No BBC because the electircians were on strike etc etc etc. The sick man of Europe.

cruxiform

Fretwired said:

marantz1300 said:

the whole point of Brexit is to give the tory right total control.

The affluent Tory areas voted remain. Many working class Labour areas voted to leave. A Tory PM, Cameron, recommended people voted Remain. He was ignored. Conclusion - you are wrong.

Fret's right. I live in an affluent area of Surrey and we voted to remain. According to the BBC 'Surrey bucked the national trend with 52.2% voting for Remain and 47.8% for Leave'. All from a largely Tory area.

marantz1300

Brize said:

marantz1300 said:

These are facts.

Maybe you have "alternative facts".

All I know is that my family is £10k a year worse off thanks to George Osborne's changes to dividend taxation. The increases in Insurance Premium Tax (which has doubled in 19 months) haven't helped either.

Your political views are dogmatic and stuck in the 1980s.

he's a tory

Brize

marantz1300 said:

Brize said:

marantz1300 said:

These are facts.

Maybe you have "alternative facts".

All I know is that my family is £10k a year worse off thanks to George Osborne's changes to dividend taxation. The increases in Insurance Premium Tax (which has doubled in 19 months) haven't helped either.

Your political views are dogmatic and stuck in the 1980s.

he's a tory

Strangely, I'm aware of that. The point is that I'm not one of the working poor that are supposed to end up worse off under Tory rule.

marantz1300

Fret's right. I live in an affluent area of Surrey and we voted to remain. According to the BBC 'Surrey bucked the national trend with 52.2% voting for Remain and 47.8% for Leave'. All from a largely Tory area

The affluent Tory areas voted remain. Many working class Labour areas voted to leave. A Tory PM, Cameron, recommended people voted Remain. He was ignored. Conclusion - you are wrong.

"i don't mean just tory voters. "

selective hearing!

marantz1300

ronnyb said:

Brize said:

marantz1300 said:

tory 17 year unbroken rule
sell off the water gas and electric
millions out of work
decimate manufacturing
close the coal mines
steel 
ship building
car industry
two ressions
negative equity
have to pay for dentist optition
poll tax 
without a labour governent
areas of the country with no work putting peoplr on benifits cradle to grave

they did it ALL on their own

Yes I remember Thatcher well. Everything was tickety boo till she became prime minister. Well tickety boo ish. That is apart from the 3 day week. Railways not running. Nurses and Ambulance drivers on strike. Rubbish piled in the streets. Dead bodies in factories because the cemeteries were being picketed. There were contingency plans to bury the rotting corpses at sea. No BBC because the electircians were on strike etc etc etc. The sick man of Europe.

Tories trying to grab everything back caused that.

Why are we always able to afford paying their gold plated pensions and expense's

Why do they not have to pay tax (off shore havens)

massive wages and bonuses

but no one else's wages ,pensions are affordable.

Emp_Fab

I despise Bliar and marched against him and his genocidal masters in Washington, but...  I personally think we should have another referendum - not because it didn't produce the result I wanted (I voted leave), but because I think both campaigns were disgraceful; both spouting barefaced lies, leaving the overwhelming majority of people to make decisions about their futures on little more than a mountain of contradictory propaganda.  What we actually ended up with was a referendum not on whether we should remain in the EU, but on which side had the edge with the bullshit they were pumping into us.

There was, unquestionably, a significant protest element to the vote.  As was mentioned in another thread, the referendum made everyone's votes count - nobody cast a worthless vote as is the case in elections under our FPTP system.  A lot of people will have voted leave because (or tipping an undecided voter into voting leave) the Govt, and Cameron in particular, wanted us all to vote remain, and they rebelled - assuming that it was inevitable the country would vote remain.  Not everyone will have done this, obviously, but enough...  more than enough to change the outcome in such a tight race.

So, when the point of a referendum is to establish the true will of the people, people who have made choices after being presented with the full facts, can you truly say that this has been accomplished here ?  I think not.

The arguments against having another referendum are strong - but so are those in favour when you look at what actually happened.  The loudest voices against the idea will be from supporters of leaving the EU.  They will undoubtedly argue (and do) that the result has to be accepted and you can't keep re-running things until you get the result you want.  That is true.  However - what is the real reason behind the protests of a lot of them ?  Is it really because they are resolutely defending the concept of democracy - or - is it that they fear a re-run might actually produce a result that they personally don't want - even if that result is the true will of the people ?  I believe the vast majority are in the latter category - they're on the winning side and they're not going to risk losing that at any cost - even if that cost is democracy.

If the winning margin is so miniscule, after disgraceful campaigns filled with propaganda and barefaced lies on a subject most of us really haven't got a bloody clue about, combined with reports of not insignificant numbers making protest votes, then what is the harm in re-running it ?  That you run the risk of finding out what the people want now ?

cruxiform

marantz1300 said:

Fret's right. I live in an affluent area of Surrey and we voted to remain. According to the BBC 'Surrey bucked the national trend with 52.2% voting for Remain and 47.8% for Leave'. All from a largely Tory area

The affluent Tory areas voted remain. Many working class Labour areas voted to leave. A Tory PM, Cameron, recommended people voted Remain. He was ignored. Conclusion - you are wrong.

"i don't mean just tory voters. "

selective hearing!

I think you're making an assumption. I'd like to add that I was born and raised in a mining community in the North East and have voted Labour all of my life and hate Thatcher & the Tories ideology. The fact is that I live in Surrey and 'we' as a community (whether I agree with their politics or not) voted remain. So @fretwired is correct.

Brize

Emp_Fab said:

I despise Bliar and marched against him and his genocidal masters in Washington, but...  I personally think we should have another referendum - not because it didn't produce the result I wanted (I voted leave), but because I think both campaigns were disgraceful; both spouting barefaced lies, leaving the overwhelming majority of people to make decisions about their futures on little more than a mountain of contradictory propaganda.  What we actually ended up with was a referendum not on whether we should remain in the EU, but on which side had the edge with the bullshit they were pumping into us.

There was, unquestionably, a significant protest element to the vote.  As was mentioned in another thread, the referendum made everyone's votes count - nobody cast a worthless vote as is the case in elections under our FPTP system.  A lot of people will have voted leave because (or tipping an undecided voter into voting leave) the Govt, and Cameron in particular, wanted us all to vote remain, and they rebelled - assuming that it was inevitable the country would vote remain.  Not everyone will have done this, obviously, but enough...  more than enough to change the outcome in such a tight race.

So, when the point of a referendum is to establish the true will of the people, people who have made choices after being presented with the full facts, can you truly say that this has been accomplished here ?  I think not.

The arguments against having another referendum are strong - but so are those in favour when you look at what actually happened.  The loudest voices against the idea will be from supporters of leaving the EU.  They will undoubtedly argue (and do) that the result has to be accepted and you can't keep re-running things until you get the result you want.  That is true.  However - what is the real reason behind the protests of a lot of them ?  Is it really because they are resolutely defending the concept of democracy - or - is it that they fear a re-run might actually produce a result that they personally don't want - even if that result is the true will of the people ?  I believe the vast majority are in the latter category - they're on the winning side and they're not going to risk losing that at any cost - even if that cost is democracy.

If the winning margin is so miniscule, after disgraceful campaigns filled with propaganda and barefaced lies on a subject most of us really haven't got a bloody clue about, combined with reports of not insignificant numbers making protest votes, then what is the harm in re-running it ?  That you run the risk of finding out what the people want now ?

You have to be realistic: a second referendum so soon wouldn't have any legitimacy. If there is to be a second referendum (which I doubt), it would have to be after the terms of Brexit have been negotiated.

In any event, the campaigning in a second referendum would likely be just as bad.

marantz1300

cruxiform said:

marantz1300 said:

Fret's right. I live in an affluent area of Surrey and we voted to remain. According to the BBC 'Surrey bucked the national trend with 52.2% voting for Remain and 47.8% for Leave'. All from a largely Tory area

The affluent Tory areas voted remain. Many working class Labour areas voted to leave. A Tory PM, Cameron, recommended people voted Remain. He was ignored. Conclusion - you are wrong.

"i don't mean just tory voters. "

selective hearing!

I think you're making an assumption. I'd like to add that I was born and raised in a mining community in the North East and have voted Labour all of my life and hate Thatcher & the Tories ideology. The fact is that I live in Surrey and 'we' as a community (whether I agree with their politics or not) voted remain. So @fretwired is correct.

again

"i don't mean just tory voters."

Heartfeltdawn

Emp_Fab said:

I despise Bliar and marched against him and his genocidal masters in Washington, but...  I personally think we should have another referendum - not because it didn't produce the result I wanted (I voted leave), but because I think both campaigns were disgraceful; both spouting barefaced lies, leaving the overwhelming majority of people to make decisions about their futures on little more than a mountain of contradictory propaganda.  What we actually ended up with was a referendum not on whether we should remain in the EU, but on which side had the edge with the bullshit they were pumping into us.

There was, unquestionably, a significant protest element to the vote.  As was mentioned in another thread, the referendum made everyone's votes count - nobody cast a worthless vote as is the case in elections under our FPTP system.  A lot of people will have voted leave because (or tipping an undecided voter into voting leave) the Govt, and Cameron in particular, wanted us all to vote remain, and they rebelled - assuming that it was inevitable the country would vote remain.  Not everyone will have done this, obviously, but enough...  more than enough to change the outcome in such a tight race.

So, when the point of a referendum is to establish the true will of the people, people who have made choices after being presented with the full facts, can you truly say that this has been accomplished here ?  I think not.

The arguments against having another referendum are strong - but so are those in favour when you look at what actually happened.  The loudest voices against the idea will be from supporters of leaving the EU.  They will undoubtedly argue (and do) that the result has to be accepted and you can't keep re-running things until you get the result you want.  That is true.  However - what is the real reason behind the protests of a lot of them ?  Is it really because they are resolutely defending the concept of democracy - or - is it that they fear a re-run might actually produce a result that they personally don't want - even if that result is the true will of the people ?  I believe the vast majority are in the latter category - they're on the winning side and they're not going to risk losing that at any cost - even if that cost is democracy.

If the winning margin is so miniscule, after disgraceful campaigns filled with propaganda and barefaced lies on a subject most of us really haven't got a bloody clue about, combined with reports of not insignificant numbers making protest votes, then what is the harm in re-running it ?  That you run the risk of finding out what the people want now ?

Equally I would ask you this: if the winning margin is so minuscule and the campaigns so crap, what would be the point of rerunning it and going through the same load of political circlejerking? What's the point of another exercise that spunks away over £100 million quid? Two cum metaphors in one paragraph seems right... 

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/eu-referendum-counting-officers-regulations

The bit in bold: no. A referendum is not to find the "true will of the people", which sounds like a Leni Riefenstahl film title. This vile way that politicians choose to dress up their own beliefs as them kowtowing to the electorate needs to be smashed in the balls, thrown into a Manchester canal, and left to drown. 

I am not in favour of a second referendum at all. Rather than a second referendum, I would support a halt of all Brexit movements. Let the next General Election decide. Let each party firmly state their position on Europe and let the electorate decide. A decision as large as Brexit shouldn't have been left to a sodding consultation featuring two cobbled together groups opposing one another with a third sticking its nose in as much as possible.

Brize

Heartfeltdawn said:

Equally I would ask you this: if the winning margin is so minuscule and the campaigns so crap, what would be the point of rerunning it and going through the same load of political circlejerking? What's the point of another exercise that spunks away over £100 million quid? Two cum metaphors in one paragraph seems right... 

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/eu-referendum-counting-officers-regulations

The bit in bold: no. A referendum is not to find the "true will of the people", which sounds like a Leni Riefenstahl film title. This vile way that politicians choose to dress up their own beliefs as them kowtowing to the electorate needs to be smashed in the balls, thrown into a Manchester canal, and left to drown. 

I am not in favour of a second referendum at all. Rather than a second referendum, I would support a halt of all Brexit movements. Let the next General Election decide. Let each party firmly state their position on Europe and let the electorate decide. A decision as large as Brexit shouldn't have been left to a sodding consultation featuring two cobbled together groups opposing one another. 

Do you think you'd be so against referenda had the result gone the other way?

Fretwired

marantz1300 said:

tory 17 year unbroken rule
sell off the water gas and electric
millions out of work
decimate manufacturing
close the coal mines
steel 
ship building
car industry
two ressions
negative equity
have to pay for dentist optition
poll tax 
without a labour governent
areas of the country with no work putting peoplr on benifits cradle to grave

they did it ALL on their own

Labour closed more coal mines than the Tories, the ship building industry killed itself, steel was expensive and inefficient .. the Tories were far from perfect but the UK was screwed over 50 years with endless useless governments that didn't see the slow rise of globalisation. You could get a ship built in Korea for 10 per cent of the cost of the UK. You could buy coal cheaper from Poland, steel cheaper from China. Your like Canute sitting on a throne trying to turn back the tide.

digitalscream

Brize said:

Heartfeltdawn said:

Equally I would ask you this: if the winning margin is so minuscule and the campaigns so crap, what would be the point of rerunning it and going through the same load of political circlejerking? What's the point of another exercise that spunks away over £100 million quid? Two cum metaphors in one paragraph seems right... 

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/eu-referendum-counting-officers-regulations

The bit in bold: no. A referendum is not to find the "true will of the people", which sounds like a Leni Riefenstahl film title. This vile way that politicians choose to dress up their own beliefs as them kowtowing to the electorate needs to be smashed in the balls, thrown into a Manchester canal, and left to drown. 

I am not in favour of a second referendum at all. Rather than a second referendum, I would support a halt of all Brexit movements. Let the next General Election decide. Let each party firmly state their position on Europe and let the electorate decide. A decision as large as Brexit shouldn't have been left to a sodding consultation featuring two cobbled together groups opposing one another. 

Do you think you'd be so against referenda had the result gone the other way?

I completely agree with him, and I was against the idea of the referendum right from the start; the population at large can't be expected to know the consequences of a decision either way...this is why we hire the government and have job interviews every four or five years.

Brize

digitalscream said:

I completely agree with him, and I was against the idea of the referendum right from the start; the population at large can't be expected to know the consequences of a decision either way...this is why we hire the government and have job interviews every four or five years.

Your confidence in parliament over the plebiscite is misplaced. Parliament voted for the Iraq war and against the Assisted Dying Bill, both against the will of the people. Those 'job interviews' are all very well and good, but most MPs just vote in line with their bosses' wishes. The idea that MPs and political parties exercise more reasoned judgement than the people they represent is, well, laughable. 

digitalscream

Brize said:

digitalscream said:

I completely agree with him, and I was against the idea of the referendum right from the start; the population at large can't be expected to know the consequences of a decision either way...this is why we hire the government and have job interviews every four or five years.

Your confidence in parliament over the plebiscite is misplaced. Parliament voted for the Iraq war and against the Assisted Dying Bill, both against the will of the people. Those 'job interviews' are all very well and good, but most MPs just vote in line with their bosses' wishes. The idea that MPs and political parties exercise more reasoned judgement than the people they represent is, well, laughable. 

Do you honestly believe that AD bill or the Iraq war were complex political and economic issues on the same scale as leaving the EU?

Forgetting for a moment that you have no benchmark for "the will of the people", the Iraq war had broad support (in a "finger in the air" sense) from "the people" at the time. It was only later, when Blair's sins were beginning to be revealed and the campaign was a disaster, that public opinion turned against it.

Brize

digitalscream said:

Do you honestly believe that AD bill or the Iraq war were complex political and economic issues on the same scale as leaving the EU?

Forgetting for a moment that you have no benchmark for "the will of the people", the Iraq war had broad support (in a "finger in the air" sense) from "the people" at the time. It was only later, when Blair's sins were beginning to be revealed and the campaign was a disaster, that public opinion turned against it.

No, I don't think the deaths of 200,000 civilians in Iraq is on the same scale as the UK leaving a trading bloc. FFS.