He's back to start a war on brexit

Sporky

Evilmags said:

These things are actually all facts. They have all happened and yet people get all morally up themselves when trying to defend the indefensible.  

You're part of the problem.

You keep making these polarising posts and using childish, taunting phrases like "virtue signalling". You are provoking people into reacting and thus perpetuating what you claim to be against. And let's face it, economists have a proud tradition of not being able to successfully predict sunrises.

axisus

Damn he's on the news right now. Disgusting self serving man. The Iraq war was a disgrace, and what about how he hung his own weapons inspector out to dry then covered up his death with a worthless narrow remit enquiry. I despise him more than thatcher. He insisted that MMR was safe (as is proven) but refused to state that his own kids had it. Who actually believes that they did? He's an utter scumbag on all levels. Blair get lost forever.

digitalscream

axisus said:

Damn he's on the news right now. Disgusting self serving man. The Iraq war was a disgrace, and what about how he hung his own weapons inspector out to dry then covered up his death with a worthless narrow remit enquiry. I despise him more than thatcher. He insisted that MMR was safe (as is proven) but refused to state that his own kids had it. Who actually believes that they did? He's an utter scumbag on all levels. Blair get lost forever.

Some valid points there, but here's the thing...he has no actual part in this country's politics, yet he's currently mounting a more effective Opposition than Corbyn and the entire Labour party have managed to muster since last June.

I'm most definitely not a fan of the man - quite the opposite, in fact - but he's doing something that we rather desperately need right now. Not necessarily to force the government to reverse the decision to leave, but to oppose their approach with strong and rational arguments. That's how the checks and balances are supposed to work in a democracy, and it's something we're sorely lacking right now.

I rather strongly believe that only a fool listens to the messenger instead of the message. To do otherwise is to turn politics into a cult of personality, and that's how we lose any semblance of objectivity and common sense.

Clarky

Evilmags said:

Sporky said:

Evilmags said:

the divide between white working class and metropolitan virtue signaler

Which are you?

Not part of their target market. 

Their is still something ludicrous about people who have not spent any real time in the areas destroyed by the EU and its economically inept currency management going on about how wonderful and economically virtuous it is when just about every disaster predicted by eurosceptic economists has happened. 

The South has become poorer and the North richer. 
Several governments have become bankrupt.
Extremism as represented by Le Penn, Wilders, Podemos, 5 Star, ADF ect has risen enormously
Economic power has concentrated in Germany, to the extent that one country determines the fate of the whole union

These things are actually all facts. They have all happened and yet people get all morally up themselves when trying to defend the indefensible.  

funny really… I've just spotted the real parallel between the Brexit vote and the US election..
I so felt for our poor compadres in the US that could only choose between Clinton or Trump.. 
neither looked like a great choice..

and likewise we could only choose between staying in or leaving… lol…

the parallel is that we were getting to choose between a shite or a turd.. lmao

57Deluxe

this is nothing to do with Brexit; this is a strategic move to make a play to become leader of the Labour Party again...

mike_l

I've said I before, I'll (no doubt) say it again, that cunt should be in jail (for the Iraq war at least).
 Yet he's still creaming cash in left, right and centre.
 

Heartfeltdawn

Brize said:

The notion that it was a 'consultation' is post hoc bullshit. It was a referendum and it was made clear to everyone and by everyone that the result would be accepted and honoured. At no point during the lengthy and tedious referendum campaign did anyone say that it was just a consultative exercise. Yes, we all (now) know that it said 'advisory' on the Bill, but that's nothing more than a technical point having to do with due process.

I agree that the referendum was a shameful exercise. In retrospect, it's clear that the establishment thought the outcome was a foregone conclusion, only for the electorate to vote the wrong way.

It's not bullshit if you're a geeky fuck like me who used to work in the field and enjoyed comparing the process of this referendum to that of the Alternative Vote in 2011. It's also not bullshit if you care to read Commons Briefing Paper 07212 issued 3 June 2015 as I've put up here before. I quite agree that lots of people said the result would be accepted and honoured. As the courts have demonstrated, nobody actually had the power or authority to make such a claim. 

It's also quite clear that neither side had complete confidence in being successful. 

prowla

vale said:

the very first & fundamental thing to be clear on with regard to brexit is that the leave majority was less than 4%.
which means that a swing of 2% (miniscule in terms of political swings) would make leave & remain 50/50.
basically (allowing for small change) half of those who voted wanted to stay & half wanted to remain.
if you are 52%/48% decided on something, you are basically undecided or confused.

http://ichef-1.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/0E22/production/_90081630_leaveresult.jpg
let's be really honest about that. talk of a collective & monolothic single-minded 'will of the people' is shite. it's a fantasy. leavers are in denial (lying to themselves & others) about that because it suits them, not because it is the case.

the biggest problem for democracy is that it's a fantasy the two major parties (& their filthy ukip appendage) are indugling rather than challenging.

it is certainly the job of the opposition to challenge it, & my disappointment with corbyn & labour on this is immense. but also the job of the government to accept & address it, since they are democratically obliged to serve the best interests of the entire country.
not just the 52% percent of the 70% of the 100% eleigible electorate who voted.

so while i don't like blair & i thought new labour was a betrayal of labour core values -
in my opinion they let neo-liberalism run riot, fiddling around with with tax credits etc, instead of addressing the fundamentals that underpin inequality -
i am behind anyone calling the government & opposition to account for indulging this ongoing 'will of the people' lie.

politics is weird & sometime you end up in strange & even perverse alliances in order to get the best result, but i'm behind blair on this issue & in this campaign. freaky but so.
i would rather corbyn was doing it, but he isn't, so i am obliged to take what is on the table.

importantly, blair is not alone, this is not blair's campaign or blair's argument. it's a public campaign & public argument that has been going on since june. if you are a remainer & committed to blocking brexit you may well have already been campaigning & arguing ever since & should continue to do so, if you really have the courage of your convictions.

but, flawed as blair is, one can't deny he has two political strengths.

the first is that he can really talk the talk. he's a smooth & persuasive talker & still very popular with a lot of the public. in spite of everything, he can still get through to the general public in that intimate one-to-one 'sincere' way only the most successful (good & bad) politicians can.

& second is that many people associate better (pre-crash) times with him. that's a big factor on the subconscious-irrational instinct level. we saw how big a part nostalgia (remember albion etc!) played in the leave campaign. well nostalgia cuts both ways & blair presses that 'good times' button for many.
if you did well during blair & new labour's stay & have struggled since 2010 (the tory dark ages) than he speaks to you & for you in a way they don't & can't.

so interesting times. weird times.

So, any reason why the 40% of the 70% of the electorate who voted should have a bigger voice?

I listened to Blair's speech in the car on the way home and it was really funny; he was stumbling over words, muddling his facts up, simultaneously pleading and being condescending - it nearly brought a tear to my eye.

The public have cast their votes in one of the most democratic polls in living memory and the government is fulfilling its election pledge (upon which it was voted into power) to hold a Referendum and to honour the result.

We don't need conniving war criminals to try and subvert the democratic process. A lot of people did prosper under the Blair regime, but a lot of others were worse off at the end of NuLab than they were when they came into power. (An awful lot of people were dead too, as a result of his vanity, attempting to launch himself as a global politician extraordinaire.)

prowla

vale said:

the very first & fundamental thing to be clear on with regard to brexit is that the leave majority was less than 4%.
which means that a swing of 2% (miniscule in terms of political swings) would make leave & remain 50/50.
basically (allowing for small change) half of those who voted wanted to stay & half wanted to remain.
if you are 52%/48% decided on something, you are basically undecided or confused.

http://ichef-1.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/0E22/production/_90081630_leaveresult.jpg
let's be really honest about that. talk of a collective & monolothic single-minded 'will of the people' is shite. it's a fantasy. leavers are in denial (lying to themselves & others) about that because it suits them, not because it is the case.

the biggest problem for democracy is that it's a fantasy the two major parties (& their filthy ukip appendage) are indugling rather than challenging.

it is certainly the job of the opposition to challenge it, & my disappointment with corbyn & labour on this is immense. but also the job of the government to accept & address it, since they are democratically obliged to serve the best interests of the entire country.
not just the 52% percent of the 70% of the 100% eleigible electorate who voted.

so while i don't like blair & i thought new labour was a betrayal of labour core values -
in my opinion they let neo-liberalism run riot, fiddling around with with tax credits etc, instead of addressing the fundamentals that underpin inequality -
i am behind anyone calling the government & opposition to account for indulging this ongoing 'will of the people' lie.

politics is weird & sometime you end up in strange & even perverse alliances in order to get the best result, but i'm behind blair on this issue & in this campaign. freaky but so.
i would rather corbyn was doing it, but he isn't, so i am obliged to take what is on the table.

importantly, blair is not alone, this is not blair's campaign or blair's argument. it's a public campaign & public argument that has been going on since june. if you are a remainer & committed to blocking brexit you may well have already been campaigning & arguing ever since & should continue to do so, if you really have the courage of your convictions.

but, flawed as blair is, one can't deny he has two political strengths.

the first is that he can really talk the talk. he's a smooth & persuasive talker & still very popular with a lot of the public. in spite of everything, he can still get through to the general public in that intimate one-to-one 'sincere' way only the most successful (good & bad) politicians can.

& second is that many people associate better (pre-crash) times with him. that's a big factor on the subconscious-irrational instinct level. we saw how big a part nostalgia (remember albion etc!) played in the leave campaign. well nostalgia cuts both ways & blair presses that 'good times' button for many.
if you did well during blair & new labour's stay & have struggled since 2010 (the tory dark ages) than he speaks to you & for you in a way they don't & can't.

so interesting times. weird times.

So, any reason why the 40% of the 70% of the electorate who voted should have a bigger voice?

I listened to Blair's speech in the car on the way home and it was really funny; he was stumbling over words, muddling his facts up, simultaneously pleading and being condescending - it nearly brought a tear to my eye.

The public have cast their votes in one of the most democratic polls in living memory and the government is fulfilling its election pledge (upon which it was voted into power) to hold a Referendum and to honour the result.

We don't need conniving war criminals to try and subvert the democratic process. A lot of people did prosper under the Blair regime, but a lot of others were worse off at the end of NuLab than they were when they came into power. (An awful lot of people were dead too, as a result of his vanity, attempting to launch himself as a global politician extraordinaire.)

Sambostar

Sambostar

marantz1300 said:

Oh it's not going to be half arsed.

It's going to be a full blown disaster.

Most of the Leavers I've met haven't a clue what they voted for and now wish they had voted remain.

They didn't think leave would win.

Idiots.

Keep telling yourself it enough times and maybe you'll believe it eh.



....Idiot.

ThePrettyDamned

prowla said:

vale said:

the very first & fundamental thing to be clear on with regard to brexit is that the leave majority was less than 4%.
which means that a swing of 2% (miniscule in terms of political swings) would make leave & remain 50/50.
basically (allowing for small change) half of those who voted wanted to stay & half wanted to remain.
if you are 52%/48% decided on something, you are basically undecided or confused.

http://ichef-1.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/0E22/production/_90081630_leaveresult.jpg
let's be really honest about that. talk of a collective & monolothic single-minded 'will of the people' is shite. it's a fantasy. leavers are in denial (lying to themselves & others) about that because it suits them, not because it is the case.

the biggest problem for democracy is that it's a fantasy the two major parties (& their filthy ukip appendage) are indugling rather than challenging.

it is certainly the job of the opposition to challenge it, & my disappointment with corbyn & labour on this is immense. but also the job of the government to accept & address it, since they are democratically obliged to serve the best interests of the entire country.
not just the 52% percent of the 70% of the 100% eleigible electorate who voted.

so while i don't like blair & i thought new labour was a betrayal of labour core values -
in my opinion they let neo-liberalism run riot, fiddling around with with tax credits etc, instead of addressing the fundamentals that underpin inequality -
i am behind anyone calling the government & opposition to account for indulging this ongoing 'will of the people' lie.

politics is weird & sometime you end up in strange & even perverse alliances in order to get the best result, but i'm behind blair on this issue & in this campaign. freaky but so.
i would rather corbyn was doing it, but he isn't, so i am obliged to take what is on the table.

importantly, blair is not alone, this is not blair's campaign or blair's argument. it's a public campaign & public argument that has been going on since june. if you are a remainer & committed to blocking brexit you may well have already been campaigning & arguing ever since & should continue to do so, if you really have the courage of your convictions.

but, flawed as blair is, one can't deny he has two political strengths.

the first is that he can really talk the talk. he's a smooth & persuasive talker & still very popular with a lot of the public. in spite of everything, he can still get through to the general public in that intimate one-to-one 'sincere' way only the most successful (good & bad) politicians can.

& second is that many people associate better (pre-crash) times with him. that's a big factor on the subconscious-irrational instinct level. we saw how big a part nostalgia (remember albion etc!) played in the leave campaign. well nostalgia cuts both ways & blair presses that 'good times' button for many.
if you did well during blair & new labour's stay & have struggled since 2010 (the tory dark ages) than he speaks to you & for you in a way they don't & can't.

so interesting times. weird times.

So, any reason why the 40% of the 70% of the electorate who voted should have a bigger voice?

I listened to Blair's speech in the car on the way home and it was really funny; he was stumbling over words, muddling his facts up, simultaneously pleading and being condescending - it nearly brought a tear to my eye.

The public have cast their votes in one of the most democratic polls in living memory and the government is fulfilling its election pledge (upon which it was voted into power) to hold a Referendum and to honour the result.

We don't need conniving war criminals to try and subvert the democratic process. A lot of people did prosper under the Blair regime, but a lot of others were worse off at the end of NuLab than they were when they came into power. (An awful lot of people were dead too, as a result of his vanity, attempting to launch himself as a global politician extraordinaire.) 

It won't be a democratic poll if there is no opposition - democracy works (in theory) because there is always opposition to ensure that every possible problem is thought through and dealt with. 

I don't think anyone really believes we won't be leaving the eu but that doesn't mean it's un-democratic to field an opposition. 

It fell to the flip of a coin the margin was so narrow. In any mathematical analysis, that narrow margin means the wrong question was asked or the wrong information provided to get a reasonable answer. Do you think it would be un-democratic for that 48 percent to not oppose the decision that will surely impact on the future of everyone in our country and the eu as a whole? 

Brize

ThePrettyDamned said:

It fell to the flip of a coin the margin was so narrow.

1,269,501 people is not 'the flip of a coin'.

ThePrettyDamned

Brize said:

ThePrettyDamned said:

It fell to the flip of a coin the margin was so narrow.

1,269,501 people is not 'the flip of a coin'.

Big number, but 2 percent swing. 

That's a flip of a coin. If it had been two percent the other way, and remain had "won" I don't think our current situation would be any better - the country has no idea (still) what brexit means. There were no plans. Likewise, there were no remain plans, but we'd know that about 50 percent of the country don't want to be a part of it. 

We lost either way.

Brize

ThePrettyDamned said:

 If it had been two percent the other way, and remain had "won" I don't think our current situation would be any better - the country has no idea (still) what brexit means.

I think I can say with near certainty that, barring Farage and a few other fringe loonies, had the vote gone the other way, the Leave voters would have just shut about it and got on with their lives.

crunchman

vale said:

& second is that many people associate better (pre-crash) times with him. that's a big factor on the subconscious-irrational instinct level. we saw how big a part nostalgia (remember albion etc!) played in the leave campaign. well nostalgia cuts both ways & blair presses that 'good times' button for many.
if you did well during blair & new labour's stay & have struggled since 2010 (the tory dark ages) than he speaks to you & for you in a way they don't & can't.

If you buy things on the never never then sooner or later you have to pay for it.  The big problem since 2010 is that we have been paying the debt (including the PFI payments that the conniving Brown kept off the books) that was racked up by New Liebour.

Brown made it worse by carrying on spending after the crisis in 2008.  Some moderate cuts then would have helped later, but he was busy trying to buy the 2010 election.

axisus said:

It looks to me like the titanic has hit the iceberg split in half and is sinking fast, and Tony Blair has shown up in a little rowing boat intent on sailing the ship back to harbour.

Brexit is is the rowing boat.  The EU is the titanic that hit the iceberg.  In it's current state the EU is doomed.

digitalscream

Brize said:

ThePrettyDamned said:

 If it had been two percent the other way, and remain had "won" I don't think our current situation would be any better - the country has no idea (still) what brexit means.

I think I can say with near certainty that, barring Farage and a few other fringe loonies, had the vote gone the other way, the Leave voters would have just shut about it and got on with their lives.

HAHAHhahahhAHAHhaHHAhahHAHAHAHhAHHAHAhAHA

Just like Labour supporters have shut up and gone about their lives when the Conservatives are in power? Or like Conservative supporters shut up and gone about their lives when Labour were in power?

marantz1300

the torys always make cuts
.
every time they are in power.
with thatcher and major that was 17 years
and it made no difference.
we were still in debt .
they just looted the country and filled their accounts.
nothing changes.

ThePrettyDamned

Brize said:

ThePrettyDamned said:

 If it had been two percent the other way, and remain had "won" I don't think our current situation would be any better - the country has no idea (still) what brexit means.

I think I can say with near certainty that, barring Farage and a few other fringe loonies, had the vote gone the other way, the Leave voters would have just shut about it and got on with their lives.

Really? 

bluechargeboy

My understanding is that the way to successfully overturn a referendum is to whinge about it for 40 years or so, so that is what I will be doing.