Gibson warning video over trademark infringements

Skipped

Philly_Q said:

Is this certain?  Peach - for example - have 2019 R9s on their site and they don't seem to have pau ferro boards.  Or are they talking about next year?

The review of the 2019 60th Anniversary R9 shows the fingerboard as Bolivian rosewood/pau ferro.

Indian Rosewood is listed as an option.

Here is what the text of the review says:

However,  there are 2 options for fretboard material when it comes to 2019's R9 - Indian and Bolivian Rosewood. Thanks to CITES, many of us have been forced to become armchair experts on Dalbergia latifolia, but our review guitar's Bolivian 'board - with it's smooth finish, dark brown hue and far less noticable pores than Indian or Brazilian Rosewood - requires further investigation.

"Bolivian rosewood is essentially pau ferro from Bolivia that has been sorted and processed in Brazil and selected for it's visual characteristics" reveals Mat (Mat Koehler, Gibson Custom Product Specialist). "It's dark and dense, unlike some pau ferro you see out there. The reason we offer it as an option is because it's export friendly in the current CITES climate and it's a great fingerboard wood to use. Its actually a little closer density-wise to Brazilian rosewood than Indian Rosewood."

https://covers.magazinecloner.com/covers/184494.jpg

terada

Skipped said:

”...The reason we offer it as an option is because it's cheaper and easier and we’re a bunch of arrogant tight asses even on a £5k guitar. We’ll spin it as fancy rosewood and they’ll lap it up...”

Fixed for you

Three-ColourSunburst

terada said:

Skipped said:

”...The reason we offer it as an option is because it's cheaper and easier and we’re a bunch of arrogant tight asses even on a £5k guitar. We’ll spin it as fancy rosewood and they’ll lap it up...”

Fixed for you

Exactly...

Pau Ferro is in the medium price range for exotic imported hardwoods, and is likely to be much more affordable than some of the scarcer true rosewoods, (Dalbergia genus) of which this wood is often used as substitute.

https://www.wood-database.com/pau-ferro/

Three-ColourSunburst

Skipped said:

I don't understand why any musician would hate the guitars that Gibson made before 1970, or why they would attempt to re-write history by pretending that those guitars had anything other than a huge reputation, which was created by word of mouth (compare and contrast). And which was 100% deserved.

But wasn't that reputation largely based on the fact that much of the competition then was garbage? For example, wasn't Paul Kossoff's first guitar a sparkly EKO 500 covered in switches? No wonder he thought that a Les Paul was an upgrade!

If guitars like the Yamaha SG and Ibanez Artists had been around in those days then Gibson's reputation would have been far harder to win. In fact given Gibson's life-long reputation for dodgy QC it is likely that many of the players now associated with Gibsons would have chosen to play something else.

Things is, much better designed and made guitars are around now than, for example, the flawed old fossil that is the Les Paul, but people still aspire to a Les Paul not because of its design or quality of construction but largely for emotional reasons, such as perceived 'mojo' and the instruments associations with players of the past. 

Skipped

Three-ColourSunburst said:

But wasn't that reputation largely based on the fact that much of the competition then was garbage? For example, wasn't Paul Kossoff's first guitar a sparkly EKO 500 covered in switches? No wonder he thought that a Les Paul was an upgrade!

If guitars like the Yamaha SG and Ibanez Artists had been around in those days then Gibson's reputation would have been far harder to win. In fact given Gibson's life-long reputation for dodgy QC it is likely that many of the players now associated with Gibsons would have chosen to play something else.

Things is, much better designed and made guitars are around now than, for example, the flawed old fossil that is the Les Paul, but people still aspire to a Les Paul not because of its design or quality of construction but largely for emotional reasons, such as perceived 'mojo' and the instruments associations with players of the past. 

There were plenty of high quality instruments around in the early 60s when the 50s Gibson Les Paul emerged as a very desirable guitar choice. There was competition from the new guitars introduced by Gibson in the 60s. There were the Gretsch and Rickenbacker guitars used by the Beatles. And, of course there were Fender guitars.

You forgot about all of those.

The reputation of the late 50's Les Paul, as a very high quality guitar (built by guys who honed their skills building archtop jazz guitars), a guitar that must be auditioned by the emerging "guitar heros", was created by word of mouth. No internet. No Collectors. No hype. And yet you are are anxious to  underplay what happened. You are reinventing history for reasons currently unknown.

Jimmy Page must have been meeting a lot of musicians in his career as a session musician. He wanted a Gibson Les Paul. The desire to own one was created by the guitar. Not by "Marketing".

Lots of people reading this have bought Historic Gibson Les Pauls because (in spite of Henry), a carefully chosen example gives a taste of the original guitars that were built in Gibson's Golden Era. You should show a bit more respect for guitarists who are making these choices, and who may also own guitars that were designed after 1964. You could also show a bit of respect for "younger" players like J. D. Simo who have chosen vintage Gibson guitars becasue of the way they play and sound. And for no other reason.

Now let's turn to "emotional reasons". (Your last paragraph). Your debate seems to be based in emotion. Hence your need to call the Gibson Les Paul a "tired old fossil".

I think there is no hope that you would understand the (many) musicians who choose to play an extensively repaired italian violin because it delivers for them. The argument would be over for you long before you attempted to move the debate to "tone woods".   

Philly_Q

Skipped said:

Philly_Q said:

Is this certain?  Peach - for example - have 2019 R9s on their site and they don't seem to have pau ferro boards.  Or are they talking about next year?

The review of the 2019 60th Anniversary R9 shows the fingerboard as Bolivian rosewood/pau ferro.

Indian Rosewood is listed as an option.

Here is what the text of the review says:

However,  there are 2 options for fretboard material when it comes to 2019's R9 - Indian and Bolivian Rosewood. Thanks to CITIES, many of us have been forced to become armchair experts on Dalbergia latifolia, but our review guitar's Bolivian 'board - with it's smooth finish, dark brown hue and far less noticable pores than Indian or Brazilian Rosewood - requires further investigation.

"Bolivian rosewood is essentially pau ferro from Bolivia that has been sorted and processed in Brazil and selected for it's visual characteristics" reveals Mat (Mat Koehler, Gibson Custom Product Specialist). "It's dark and dense, unlike some pau ferro you see out there. The reason we offer it as an option is because it's export friendly in the current CITIES climate and it's a great fingerboard wood to use. Its actually a little closer density-wise to Brazilian rosewood than Indian Rosewood."

https://covers.magazinecloner.com/covers/184494.jpg

Well I never.  Thanks.

Schnozz

I think there's a gap in the market for a decent Flying V - There's not a lot of affordable alternatives.

darthed1981

Schnozz said:

I think there's a gap in the market for a decent Flying V - There's not a lot of affordable alternatives.

Wis - I'd love an affordable V.

I just can't bring myself to buy a Gibson one.

Philtre

Does that article really say "CITIES" rather than "CITES"? (Not being funny, just wondering)

Skipped

Philtre said:

Does that article really say "CITIES" rather than "CITES"? (Not being funny, just wondering)

No. That was me.  (Thank you).

I first read it as CITIES a long time ago and it has stuck. 

Philtre

Skipped said:

Philtre said:

Does that article really say "CITIES" rather than "CITES"? (Not being funny, just wondering)

No. That was me.  (Thank you).

I first read it as CITIES a long time ago and it has stuck. 

No worries.

Three-ColourSunburst

Skipped said:

I think there is no hope that you would understand the (many) musicians who choose to play an extensively repaired italian violin because it delivers for them.

Classical players are just as susceptible to myth, mojo and self-delusion as the players of electric instruments...

https://www.pnas.org/content/pnas/109/3/760.full.pdf

terada

Three-ColourSunburst said:

Skipped said:

I think there is no hope that you would understand the (many) musicians who choose to play an extensively repaired italian violin because it delivers for them.

Classical players are just as susceptible to myth, mojo and self-delusion as the players of electric instruments...

https://www.pnas.org/content/pnas/109/3/760.full.pdf

while we're talking about bad PR and marketing:

P Nas? Seriously? I give up

Kittyfrisk

Three-ColourSunburst said:

Skipped said:

I don't understand why any musician would hate the guitars that Gibson made before 1970, or why they would attempt to re-write history by pretending that those guitars had anything other than a huge reputation, which was created by word of mouth (compare and contrast). And which was 100% deserved.

But wasn't that reputation largely based on the fact that much of the competition then was garbage? For example, wasn't Paul Kossoff's first guitar a sparkly EKO 500 covered in switches? No wonder he thought that a Les Paul was an upgrade!

If guitars like the Yamaha SG and Ibanez Artists had been around in those days then Gibson's reputation would have been far harder to win. In fact given Gibson's life-long reputation for dodgy QC it is likely that many of the players now associated with Gibsons would have chosen to play something else.

Things is, much better designed and made guitars are around now than, for example, the flawed old fossil that is the Les Paul, but people still aspire to a Les Paul not because of its design or quality of construction but largely for emotional reasons, such as perceived 'mojo' and the instruments associations with players of the past. 

Yes, Paul Kossoff's first guitar was apparently an EKO 500... when he was 16.
https://www.groundguitar.com/paul-kossoff-guitars-and-gear/
 
Similarly, Jimmy Page predominantly played a Fender Telecaster, prior to and including the first two Zeppelin albums, as a guitar of choice. Also Danelectro's. Eko's etc. while with Zeppelin. Fair play to him for that.

So did Mick Ronson, again associated with Gibsons, but aways a player that could get the same sound out of any guitar he was given, but loved & used Tele's throughout the Ziggy years.

 Rumour has it, Jimi Hendrix & (insert guitar icon/God of choice) could & did play a shedload of brands & all sounded like themselves.

Better designed & made does not equate to better sound/tone.
I wish I knew why, but it just doesn't.

But, you are right that Gibson need to get their QC together as a priority... or cease to be relevant... IMHO 

Nikc

you know most buyers couldn't care less, tokai have been battering they're arse's for years but half wits would rather buy a R8 for stupid money from peach or the like - its bits of wood an wire - nothing magic honest

Rabs

Kittyfrisk said:

Yes, Paul Kossoff's first guitar was apparently an EKO 500... when he was 16.
https://www.groundguitar.com/paul-kossoff-guitars-and-gear/
 
Similarly, Jimmy Page predominantly played a Fender Telecaster, prior to and including the first two Zeppelin albums, as a guitar of choice. Also Danelectro's. Eko's etc. while with Zeppelin. Fair play to him for that.
 

He did have a Les Paul which he used in his session days.
https://i.imgur.com/7lcnY8K.jpg

http://ledzepnews.com/2019/04/05/heres-the-first-photo-of-jimmy-pages-returned-black-beauty-guitar-which-was-stolen-in-1970/

In February 2016, a rumour spread through parts of the internet which excited Led Zeppelin fans and Gibson guitar collectors: Jimmy Page had been reunited with his legendary “Black Beauty” guitar which was stolen in 1970.

The 1960 Gibson Les Paul was Page’s main session guitar from 1962 to 1967 and was also used during the early years of Led Zeppelin. The guitar was stolen at Minneapolis–Saint Paul airport in April 1970, though, when Page took it with him to the US on tour.

For 45 years, the guitar and Page were separated.

However, Page has confirmed that he was reunited with the stolen guitar on November 12, 2015 and his “Black Beauty” guitar is now on display in the Metropolitan Museum of Art’s “Play It Loud: Instruments of Rock & Roll” exhibition which will open on April 8.

Kittyfrisk

Nikc said:

you know most buyers couldn't care less, tokai have been battering they're arse's for years but half wits would rather buy a R8 for stupid money from peach or the like - its bits of wood an wire - nothing magic honest

Hey Man, don't be dissing & ditching the Mojo too soon. 

Nikc

Kittyfrisk said:

Nikc said:

you know most buyers couldn't care less, tokai have been battering they're arse's for years but half wits would rather buy a R8 for stupid money from peach or the like - its bits of wood an wire - nothing magic honest

Hey Man, don't be dissing & ditching the Mojo too soon. 

I know next we'll suggest american fenders are better than those made in mexico

Kittyfrisk

Don't know that this is the right thread to continue this, but for what it's worth.

Jimmy Page was interviewed in 2014.

Q 'A debate has raged for many years on what electric guitars were used on the first album."

A 'It’s hard for people to believe, but I just used my Fender Telecaster for the entire album, except for one track. Somebody was trying to sell me a Gibson Flying V at the time. I don’t what made them think I could afford it, because I clearly couldn’t, but I asked them if I could just try it out. I brought it into Olympic and used it on “You Shook Me.” With those big humbuckers, it was so powerful you can hear it breaking up the amp in the middle of the song. I could’ve tidied it up, but I really liked hearing the amp really struggle to get the sound out. It’s really fighting through the electronics to get out of that speaker. I’m not sure what happened to the guitar. It might’ve found its way to Keith Richards or something, but I really don’t know.'

Guess the bottom line is, this is all just banter & guitar top trumps   

Three-ColourSunburst

Nikc said:

you know most buyers couldn't care less, tokai have been battering they're arse's for years but half wits would rather buy a R8 for stupid money from peach or the like - its bits of wood an wire - nothing magic honest

And then, after being solidly rogered by Gibson, many then spend even more money on after-market pickups to get the tone they want. They might as well have bought a Harley Benton and had that rewired and fitted with the same pickups, all that it would lack would be a bit of mojo, and that only exists in the players head!