Gibson R8 or Harley Benton with Pickup Upgrades?

TINMAN82

ICBM said:

It's the same old conundrum...

In a full band mix, all electric guitars sound the same to a high degree of accuracy - about the only really identifiable sound is the Strat in-between, because it has a unique harmonic signature caused by the spacing of the pickups. But when you're playing the guitar yourself, you can often tell the tone difference between fingerboard woods, for example.

Both things are true at the same time and one does not disprove the other.

Still not convinced by this and years of listening to live music feels like it trumps a pseudo-experiment on this forum.

Take a couple of live acts that change their guitars a lot during a gig. I for one can tell the difference between Bonamassa on a Strat vs a Les Paul. It’s pretty obvious. When he switches to an ES-335 it’s closer to his LP but certainly not identical. 

Same with Keef on a tele vs semi hollow or other Gibson.

Yes you could say a non guitar player might not notice or care but that doesn’t mean the guitars are inseparable.

Freebird

TINMAN82 said:

ICBM said:

It's the same old conundrum...

In a full band mix, all electric guitars sound the same to a high degree of accuracy - about the only really identifiable sound is the Strat in-between, because it has a unique harmonic signature caused by the spacing of the pickups. But when you're playing the guitar yourself, you can often tell the tone difference between fingerboard woods, for example.

Both things are true at the same time and one does not disprove the other.

Still not convinced by this and years of listening to live music feels like it trumps a pseudo-experiment on this forum.

Take a couple of live acts that change their guitars a lot during a gig. I for one can tell the difference between Bonamassa on a Strat vs a Les Paul. It’s pretty obvious. When he switches to an ES-335 it’s closer to his LP but certainly not identical. 

Same with Keef on a tele vs semi hollow or other Gibson.

Yes you could say a non guitar player might not notice or care but that doesn’t mean the guitars are inseparable.

If you listen to the Pixies and the Clash it's quite noticeable, and that's why I got a Telecaster and a Les Paul, as they complement each other so well.

peteri

Watching this thread with a combination of interest, bemusement and amusement.

The guitar is a 'system', yes some things have a bigger impact than others but everything does have an impact.

Neck thickness, neck material, finish material etc. all play a part and it's really easy to prove that.

For example, I have just sold my 1953 conversion, and I have a 54 Goldtop - both these guitars played unplugged sound different, why? It has to be the wood - but there is a family resemblance. 

I've compared both of those to two 59 Les Pauls, which sounded very different again to the Goldtops - why? Because Gibson changed the supply of wood with the introduction of hum buckers in 57 and the 59s sounded like siblings unplugged, but like cousins to the Goldtop.

I also have a 1972 Les Paul Custom, which is completely different again - not subtlety at all, but the loudest of the bunch - again unplugged.

Similarly, I have a 56 Esquire and a 66 Telecaster. The Tele has a relatively slender rosewood neck, the Esquire a deep 'V' maple neck.

Again unplugged, the Tele is relatively warm, quieter, slightly softer. The Esquire is loud, more treble and snap - all of which translate into plugged in.

Interestingly I tried swapping necks between the guitars and much of the snap and volume moved with the neck.

Back to the OP, if you take a HB guitar, upgrade the electrics (including the loom), get it set-up etc. will it challenge a R8? I seriously doubt it, the wood shouldn't be anything like the same quality, the fret job might not be so accurate, and the finish is likely to be thicker and more plastic.

The question is really does it matter to you? If you're playing with all controls on the guitar on 10, through really high gain settings - the HB might well be enough.

I've been playing a very long time (30+ years), for much of that - actually the lower priced instruments were fine for me, that's fine for some points of reference and some styles of music it's all you need.

Playing a bit slower, with less gain, maybe using the guitar controls more - and the differences (to me) become more apparent.

Surely it's about finding a guitar that you like and works for you at your playing stage? For most of my life I've been a Strat player, now I'm almost exclusively Les Pauls with a bit of Tele thrown in - in 10 years time, who knows? 

For most of my life my Les Paul experience was in owning Studios, I would definitely think with a new loom, pickups, frets and tuners one of those would give a R8 a run - but really for me, it's largely immaterial and also down to neck profile working for me

Grumpyrocker

I played a beautiful G&L Telecaster in a shop yesterday. Bit of a confession - never played a Tele before. And what struck me was - despite the single coils - how much it sounded like my Les Paul.

I don't know if I'm trying to make a point about anything, just making an observation. 

The other thing that struck me was how flipping thick the body was, along with the hefty neck I felt like I was playing a giant's guitar.

Philly_Q

Grumpyrocker said:

I played a beautiful G&L Telecaster in a shop yesterday. Bit of a confession - never played a Tele before. And what struck me was - despite the single coils - how much it sounded like my Les Paul.

I don't know if I'm trying to make a point about anything, just making an observation. 

The other thing that struck me was how flipping thick the body was, along with the hefty neck I felt like I was playing a giant's guitar.

You thought a Tele body seemed thick after being used to a Les Paul?

Whenever I pick up an LP I'm always a bit shocked by just how bulky it is, although the actual body outline is quite small.

Grumpyrocker

Philly_Q said:

Grumpyrocker said:

I played a beautiful G&L Telecaster in a shop yesterday. Bit of a confession - never played a Tele before. And what struck me was - despite the single coils - how much it sounded like my Les Paul.

I don't know if I'm trying to make a point about anything, just making an observation. 

The other thing that struck me was how flipping thick the body was, along with the hefty neck I felt like I was playing a giant's guitar.

You thought a Tele body seemed thick after being used to a Les Paul?

Whenever I pick up an LP I'm always a bit shocked by just how bulky it is, although the actual body outline is quite small.

Yes I did, the upper horn just seemed like a enormous slab of wood. Maybe if it was arched and bound maybe it wouldn't seem so.

munckee

I cant believe the weight of les Paul's. I have played a few sitting down but when you stand up with one the weight is really surprising from a fender type guitar player. 

p90fool

munckee said:

I cant believe the weight of les Paul's. I have played a few sitting down but when you stand up with one the weight is really surprising from a fender type guitar player. 

Mine still catches me out after many hundreds of gigs. It's perfectly comfortable for three hour gigs, but unless I concentrate and get in the right position I can sprain my wrist lifting it off the stand!

Philly_Q

p90fool said:

munckee said:

I cant believe the weight of les Paul's. I have played a few sitting down but when you stand up with one the weight is really surprising from a fender type guitar player. 

Mine still catches me out after many hundreds of gigs. It's perfectly comfortable for three hour gigs, but unless I concentrate and get in the right position I can sprain my wrist lifting it off the stand!

I used to have a Fernandes bass which was about 11lbs.  I don't weigh very much myself and if I leaned over to pick it up it was heavy enough to make me lose my balance.

ICBM

TINMAN82 said:

Still not convinced by this and years of listening to live music feels like it trumps a pseudo-experiment on this forum.

Take a couple of live acts that change their guitars a lot during a gig. I for one can tell the difference between Bonamassa on a Strat vs a Les Paul. It’s pretty obvious. When he switches to an ES-335 it’s closer to his LP but certainly not identical.

Probably because he chooses to play them differently for different songs, which is why he doesn't just use one guitar.

If you heard an unknown recording without knowing whether the guitar was a Les Paul or a 335, would you be able to tell which?

If you heard an unknown recording without knowing if it was a Les Paul or a Tele, would you be able to tell which?

If you heard an unknown recording without knowing whether it was a Les Paul or a Strat, would you be able to tell which if the player was using either the bridge or the neck pickup alone?

You may be surprised by the answers, some of which are on famous recordings...

Certainly, if I'm playing a Les Paul and I swap to a Strat without changing the amp settings, you'll be able to tell. But that's not the same thing.

gringopig's test is not a pseudo-experiment, it's a simple blind test. Some differences were apparent - for example I got the Jaguar on the first go - but there's really far less difference between any electric guitars than you think there is, when you don't know what is being played.

imalrightjack

I have to say, I agree with @ICBM. I recorded using my Helix into Logic my 70s SG, my PRS Modern Eagle, my Williams (that’s three with humbuckers) and then my Strat. Sent it to my mate to see if he could identify each guitar. Nope. Not at all. The only bit he picked out was the neck humbucker. All were against a backing track, so ‘in the mix’. Isolated, they had some definite differences, but not massively so. 

TTBZ

munckee said:

I cant believe the weight of les Paul's. I have played a few sitting down but when you stand up with one the weight is really surprising from a fender type guitar player. 

Weight is the only thing making me question getting one again as that was one of the reasons I decided to part with my last one. Thing is they just sound so good, hang well on a strap and are effortless and addictive to play lead on (up to around the 15th fret at least). I've been playing an SG since and it's always more of a struggle, not as fun. I've had to fit a really high output pickup to get that sustain/push and girth, at the expense of some clarity and dynamics with a more modern tone. SGs are just ridiculously comfy though. I'm kinda wondering if a tele is a good halfway house, Page got some pretty good tones with his!

terada

munckee said:

I cant believe the weight of les Paul's. I have played a few sitting down but when you stand up with one the weight is really surprising from a fender type guitar player. 

TTBZ said:

munckee said:

I cant believe the weight of les Paul's. I have played a few sitting down but when you stand up with one the weight is really surprising from a fender type guitar player. 

Weight is the only thing making me question getting one again as that was one of the reasons I decided to part with my last one. Thing is they just sound so good, hang well on a strap and are effortless and addictive to play lead on (up to around the 15th fret at least). I've been playing an SG since and it's always more of a struggle, not as fun. I've had to fit a really high output pickup to get that sustain/push and girth, at the expense of some clarity and dynamics with a more modern tone. SGs are just ridiculously comfy though. I'm kinda wondering if a tele is a good halfway house, Page got some pretty good tones with his!

If you're concerned about weight with Les Paul shaped instruments, a historic Gibson (or similar high end replica) could be your solution.

My R9 is one of the lightest guitars I own, certainly lighter than my Strats and tele. 

darthed1981

terada said:

If you're concerned about weight with Les Paul shaped instruments, a historic Gibson (or similar high end replica) could be your solution.

My R9 is one of the lightest guitars I own, certainly lighter than my Strats and tele. 

Either that or a Harley Benton, it's a toss up really...

terada

darthed1981 said:

terada said:

If you're concerned about weight with Les Paul shaped instruments, a historic Gibson (or similar high end replica) could be your solution.

My R9 is one of the lightest guitars I own, certainly lighter than my Strats and tele. 

Either that or a Harley Benton, it's a toss up really...

  

Kittyfrisk

darthed1981 said:

terada said:

If you're concerned about weight with Les Paul shaped instruments, a historic Gibson (or similar high end replica) could be your solution.

My R9 is one of the lightest guitars I own, certainly lighter than my Strats and tele. 

Either that or a Harley Benton, it's a toss up really...

Yawn...

Kittyfrisk

terada said:

darthed1981 said:

terada said:

If you're concerned about weight with Les Paul shaped instruments, a historic Gibson (or similar high end replica) could be your solution.

My R9 is one of the lightest guitars I own, certainly lighter than my Strats and tele. 

Either that or a Harley Benton, it's a toss up really...

  

.

thegummy

ICBM said:

TINMAN82 said:

Still not convinced by this and years of listening to live music feels like it trumps a pseudo-experiment on this forum.

Take a couple of live acts that change their guitars a lot during a gig. I for one can tell the difference between Bonamassa on a Strat vs a Les Paul. It’s pretty obvious. When he switches to an ES-335 it’s closer to his LP but certainly not identical.

Probably because he chooses to play them differently for different songs, which is why he doesn't just use one guitar.

If you heard an unknown recording without knowing whether the guitar was a Les Paul or a 335, would you be able to tell which?

If you heard an unknown recording without knowing if it was a Les Paul or a Tele, would you be able to tell which?

If you heard an unknown recording without knowing whether it was a Les Paul or a Strat, would you be able to tell which if the player was using either the bridge or the neck pickup alone?

You may be surprised by the answers, some of which are on famous recordings...

Certainly, if I'm playing a Les Paul and I swap to a Strat without changing the amp settings, you'll be able to tell. But that's not the same thing.

gringopig's test is not a pseudo-experiment, it's a simple blind test. Some differences were apparent - for example I got the Jaguar on the first go - but there's really far less difference between any electric guitars than you think there is, when you don't know what is being played.

Are you meaning a Strat with humbuckers or a standard Strat?

If the latter, does your point here not pretty much mean anyone putting a humbucker in a Strat is wasting their time and money?

What would the point be of you switching between your 2 guitars if they both sound the same anyway?

I've never done any blind test or anything but I do find it hard to believe that Strats (on the neck or bridge) and Les Pauls are interchangeable when they seem to sound so distinctly different to me.

crunchman

thegummy said:

I've never done any blind test or anything but I do find it hard to believe that Strats (on the neck or bridge) and Les Pauls are interchangeable when they seem to sound so distinctly different to me.

I think it does depend on the individual guitars.  I have two Strats.  One of them sounds a lot more beefy than the other.  It's not a Les Paul, but with the right pedals and eq, it wouldn't sound far away in a mix.  I don't think you could ever mistake the other one for a Les Paul.

thegummy

crunchman said:

thegummy said:

I've never done any blind test or anything but I do find it hard to believe that Strats (on the neck or bridge) and Les Pauls are interchangeable when they seem to sound so distinctly different to me.

I think it does depend on the individual guitars.  I have two Strats.  One of them sounds a lot more beefy than the other.  It's not a Les Paul, but with the right pedals and eq, it wouldn't sound far away in a mix.  I don't think you could ever mistake the other one for a Les Paul.

There are some sounds people use that would be hard to tell and can be made by either guitar but there are also sounds played on Strats that I don't think a Les Paul could make convincingly and vice versa.

At a point I wanted to go down to just a single guitar and tried as hard as I could to get it to make the sounds I like from the Les Paul but couldn't get it close enough. Then switching over to an actual Les Paul (not necessarily keeping all the same settings on everything else) just confirmed how far away I was with the Strat.

That wasn't in a band bix or a blind test though, but I did really want to be able to get the LP tones from the Strat at the time.