Gibson R8 or Harley Benton with Pickup Upgrades?

ICBM

TINMAN82 said:

no fret dressing

You mean like Gibson's crudely square-topped, unpolished frets?

You'll find better-finished frets on something like a Samick.

TINMAN82 said:

most importantly the fretboard where a rough, dry piece of cardboard brown “rosewood” looks like crap.

You mean like on USA Gibsons?

Many far-east cheapos have *better* fingerboard woods than most recent Gibsons in my experience.

This isn't reverse snobbery since there are other things that Gibson do definitely do better, but the quality differences aren't all one way.

When you get to the Historics then there are very few things that aren't better, but at the eye-watering price difference that should be a given - and even then you can occasionally find things that make you question why they can't get *everything* right *all* the time.

dazzajl

crunchman said:

.......... but unless you can do all the work yourself, it's going to cost £300 and you might as well buy a £600 guitar to start with.

I’d agree and would never bother with a
project like that myself. BUT, going back to that HB 335 I had, I’m fairly sure that the whole project cost less than £600 and if you magicked away the HB logo for a Gibson one, it would
have happily sold for £2k 

But being the HB it is, it sold for a fair bit less than the sum of its parts. Guitars are as much held to a place in the food chain by their breeding as we are   

johnl

ICBM said:

So there it is - what *really* separates a Harley Benton from an R8 in terms of what makes a professional-quality musical instrument - a fiver's worth of parts, or a tenner if you're being fussy . Everything else is just diminishing returns...

For a given definition of "professional quality" of course. The above would seem to be "makes a sound, doesn't fall off the strap" but some people might be hoping for slightly more than that....

ICBM

johnl said:

For a given definition of "professional quality" of course. The above would seem to be "makes a sound, doesn't fall off the strap" but some people might be hoping for slightly more than that....

The definition I was using was "of good enough quality to be used by a professional".

A Harley Benton is that, as long as it doesn't fall off the strap or stop making a sound. You'd have to add the ability to stay and play in tune, not buzz - electrically or from the frets - and make a sound that isn't unusably thin or muddy... but a Harley Benton will also do all that, if properly set up.

While it's true that most professionals probably would prefer something a bit more refined, I doubt there are any who couldn't play a gig or a recording session with one, and have it sound very close to how it would with a Gibson - thus it is of professional quality.

The same couldn't have been said for most low-end guitars fifty years ago.

dazzajl

This mythical divide between what is amateur kit and what is professional drives me scatty in my working world. And as it is with cameras and imaging gear, so it is with guitars. Probably the culinary industry too. 

99% of the time, the only thing restricting the quality of your creative output is your talent and your imagination. 

Grumpyrocker

ICBM said:

thegummy said:

Haven't had that issue with SE's but I fear it's going to happen with the neck bolts on my bass since they've been screwed and unscrewed so many times due to the truss rod adjustment being at the neck heel.

Usually I just put a bit of cocktail stick in with smaller screws, anyone know any tips for large screws like the neck bolts?

Put wood glue in the hole, pack it tightly with cocktail sticks, then put it back together immediately while the glue is still wet. The compression of the screw and the wood fibres will create an extremely strong composite thread around the remains of the old one when the glue sets.

This sounds like a bodge, but it's actually the best and strongest way.

Yup, done this a few times in the past. Absolutely rock solid.

darthed1981

dazzajl said:

99% of the time, the only thing restricting the quality of your creative output is your talent and your imagination. 

...and hard work. 

Lets face it twenty hours practising vs 20 hours looking at then purchasing expensive guitars and you know which will make you a better player.

We are all guilty of that though!

crunchman

dazzajl said:

crunchman said:

.......... but unless you can do all the work yourself, it's going to cost £300 and you might as well buy a £600 guitar to start with.

I’d agree and would never bother with a
project like that myself. BUT, going back to that HB 335 I had, I’m fairly sure that the whole project cost less than £600 and if you magicked away the HB logo for a Gibson one, it would
have happily sold for £2k 

But being the HB it is, it sold for a fair bit less than the sum of its parts. Guitars are as much held to a place in the food chain by their breeding as we are   

There are levels between Harley Benton and Gibson.  I used to have a Tokai 335 style.

thegummy said:

crunchman said:

ICBM said:

crunchman said:

Pots.  I hate the scratchy pots you get on cheap guitars.

Contact cleaner will usually sort them out, but if not then yes.

It's interesting isn't it - the bits that make the most difference in a practical sense are not the type of woods, the pickups, or even the more expensive hardware like the machineheads (although they may be on the list, but further up), but the cheapest parts... the ones where penny-pinching on the quality makes the least difference to the final price.

The woods do make a difference.  I don't mind playing cheaper guitars, but I don't want some thin sounding unresponsive lump of a guitar. 

It definitely is the wood.  I've had guitars that were very bright sounding unplugged, and sounded very thin when plugged in.  Pickup swaps did not help.  The plugged in sound is dependent on the unplugged sound.  It is the wood (and construction) of the guitar

The unplugged sound would include reflections off the top of the body though, wouldn't it? Yet the plugged in sound wouldn't, would it?

All the vibrations effect the tone.  When the body vibrates, that feeds back into the strings.  If it didn't, then a Les Paul, a 335 and an SG all have the same scale length, and electronics and would sound exactly the same plugged in - but they don't.  The wood and the construction do make a difference.

Kittyfrisk

All the vibrations effect the tone.  When the body vibrates, that feeds back into the strings.  If it didn't, then a Les Paul, a 335 and an SG all have the same scale length, and electronics and would sound exactly the same plugged in - but they don't.  The wood and the construction do make a difference.

@crunchman ;
 Once again, I refer you (me, everyone) to this https://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/154250/gringos-clean-test-can-you-pass/p1

crunchman

Kittyfrisk said:

All the vibrations effect the tone.  When the body vibrates, that feeds back into the strings.  If it didn't, then a Les Paul, a 335 and an SG all have the same scale length, and electronics and would sound exactly the same plugged in - but they don't.  The wood and the construction do make a difference.

@crunchman ;
 Once again, I refer you (me, everyone) to this https://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/154250/gringos-clean-test-can-you-pass/p1

I didn't see that before.  I'm at work at the moment.  I'll have a listen at home sometime in the next couple of days.

Whatever the outcome of that, my 335 sounds different from my Les Paul, and they both sound different from my old SG.

Interestingly, the SG sounded very similar to my PRS S2 Singlecut Satin - both all mahogany bodies with no maple cap.  Co-incidence?

The big clinchers for me that wood affects tone have been some PRS guitars that I've owned and played.  I had a rosewood necked (whole neck not just fingerboard) McCarty for a while.  That sounded very different to the regular mahogany necked version, which is otherwise identical.  I've played some other PRS guitars with rosewood necks, and they have a very characteristic tone.  It's definitely the wood.

TINMAN82

ICBM said:

TINMAN82 said:

no fret dressing

You mean like Gibson's crudely square-topped, unpolished frets?

You'll find better-finished frets on something like a Samick.

TINMAN82 said:

most importantly the fretboard where a rough, dry piece of cardboard brown “rosewood” looks like crap.

You mean like on USA Gibsons?

Many far-east cheapos have *better* fingerboard woods than most recent Gibsons in my experience.

This isn't reverse snobbery since there are other things that Gibson do definitely do better, but the quality differences aren't all one way.

When you get to the Historics then there are very few things that aren't better, but at the eye-watering price difference that should be a given - and even then you can occasionally find things that make you question why they can't get *everything* right *all* the time.

Right, so any argument suggesting £300 store brand guitars are inferior is instantly negated by pulling out the Gibson card is it?!

I think those that genuinely think they have “as good as it gets” in a Harley Benton after spending an extra tenner on new hardware are kidding themselves.

Kittyfrisk

ICBM said:

TINMAN82 said:

no fret dressing

You mean like Gibson's crudely square-topped, unpolished frets?

You'll find better-finished frets on something like a Samick.

TINMAN82 said:

most importantly the fretboard where a rough, dry piece of cardboard brown “rosewood” looks like crap.

You mean like on USA Gibsons?

Many far-east cheapos have *better* fingerboard woods than most recent Gibsons in my experience.

This isn't reverse snobbery since there are other things that Gibson do definitely do better, but the quality differences aren't all one way.

When you get to the Historics then there are very few things that aren't better, but at the eye-watering price difference that should be a given - and even then you can occasionally find things that make you question why they can't get *everything* right *all* the time.

Not a Harley Benton, but... for £125 with the uncommon twin Entwistle HV58+ pickups.
Revelation RJT-60H.
Sounds very nice, Wilkinson MVB bridge, steel block. One piece body, no fret issues. Full-ish C profile neck.
Still has the scratch plate film on, 'cos I'm lazy 
Bought on a whim when they came out, just to see how bad they could be & to part it out... I was wrong *blush*

darthed1981

TINMAN82 said:

I think those that genuinely think they have “as good as it gets” in a Harley Benton after spending an extra tenner on new hardware are kidding themselves.

Nobody thinks that.  What people think is that cheaper far-east made guitars are far better than they have ever been, to the extent that you can gig them without modding of any kind in some cases.

People also think Gibsons are very expensive, which they are, and that diminishing returns have set in hard a long time and a lot of £££ before you get to R8/R9 money.

One of the nicest most playable guitars I've ever owned was a Squier Bullet Strat, it didn't have quality hardware, and the tuners especially were a trial, but like @p90fool said earlier, playing it made me smile, and you can get that at any price point (arguably, hopefully, but due to poor QC not nearly guaranteed enough, its more likely with an R8).

ToneControl

terada said:

Well ones authentic and ones not. So easy answer... right mark?

Is that Negan?

ICBM

TINMAN82 said:

Right, so any argument suggesting £300 store brand guitars are inferior is instantly negated by pulling out the Gibson card is it?!

This discussion is about the difference between a Harley Benton and a Gibson.

There is varying quality at almost all price points, and not necessarily in the ways you might expect.

TINMAN82 said:

I think those that genuinely think they have “as good as it gets” in a Harley Benton after spending an extra tenner on new hardware are kidding themselves.

Where have I ever said that? I specifically said that you do generally get better quality as you spend more, it's just that it's always diminishing returns.

But I also said that a Harley Benton could be used professionally with just a few cheap upgrades, and that is a fact.

OilCityPickups

ICBM said:

crunchman said:

Pots.  I hate the scratchy pots you get on cheap guitars.

Contact cleaner will usually sort them out, but if not then yes.

It's interesting isn't it - the bits that make the most difference in a practical sense are not the type of woods, the pickups, or even the more expensive hardware like the machineheads (although they may be on the list, but further up), but the cheapest parts... the ones where penny-pinching on the quality makes the least difference to the final price.

Cheap output jack sockets caused the most issues on the Harley Bentons we have had for pickup demo work. followed by cheap and nasty pots, flimsy switches and lack of shielding. Machine head issues seem common, and we have run across ones with very poorly cut nuts. 

johnl

So, if you buy a HB you just need to change the pots, the nut, the pickups, the switch, the jack socket, the strap buttons and the wiring and you're halfway there

Someone asked a while back what the best value for money Les Paul-alike is - that has to be the PRS Bernie Marsden SE, those are ridiculous value for money.

guitars4you

johnl said:

So, if you buy a HB you just need to change the pots, the nuts, the pickups, the switch, the jack socket, the nut, the strap buttons and the wiring and you're halfway there

Someone asked a while back what the best value for money Les Paul-alike is - that has to be the PRS Bernie Marsden SE, those are ridiculous value for money.

I agree about the Bernie SE - one of the best guitars in its class/price range - buy a used version and you have an outstanding value for money guitar

Fifty9

Third’d re the Bernie. 

crunchman

OilCityPickups said:

ICBM said:

crunchman said:

Pots.  I hate the scratchy pots you get on cheap guitars.

Contact cleaner will usually sort them out, but if not then yes.

It's interesting isn't it - the bits that make the most difference in a practical sense are not the type of woods, the pickups, or even the more expensive hardware like the machineheads (although they may be on the list, but further up), but the cheapest parts... the ones where penny-pinching on the quality makes the least difference to the final price.

Cheap output jack sockets caused the most issues on the Harley Bentons we have had for pickup demo work. followed by cheap and nasty pots, flimsy switches and lack of shielding. Machine head issues seem common, and we have run across ones with very poorly cut nuts. 

To be fair, I've got a Gibson that had a very poorly cut nut, and I had to replace the selector switch when it was less than a year old.