Gibson R8 or Harley Benton with Pickup Upgrades?

PolarityMan

ICBM said:

Just for a bit of a diversion... if I had a Harley Benton, and I wanted to gig with it, which component(s) would I regard as an essential upgrade?

Clue - the devil is in the details.

2 metalzones?

rossi

My JA 60 Harley Benton had lethal fret sprout that would have ripped my hands to shreds if I had played it  .As I can sort out frets no problem but maybe not for others .Other than that a nice guitar ,certainly giggable  though probably not at the 02.Some Tonerider P90's I had improved it but it sounded OK any way .Most Far Eastern guitars are heavy as lighter wood costs more I gather..I put  decent Alpha pots in nearly all  Asian guitars as a matter of course.

ICBM

PolarityMan said:

2 metalzones?

A customer once brought me two Metal Zones, with the fault description "both of them are noisy" - but when I tested them they were no worse than any other ones. So I told him that they were fine and a little noise is inevitable when you use such a high-gain pedal, especially with the gain and volume right up (his settings when they came in), but that it was within what would be normal for them. He still insisted they were too noisy, so I plugged one in and demonstrated that it wasn't, then unplugged it to test the second one, and at that point he said - "no, at the same time"...

I strongly suspect that you could be playing an electric banjo and not be able to tell any difference from an R8 like that.

OilCityPickups

crunchman said:

OilCityPickups said:

ICBM said:

crunchman said:

Pots.  I hate the scratchy pots you get on cheap guitars.

Contact cleaner will usually sort them out, but if not then yes.

It's interesting isn't it - the bits that make the most difference in a practical sense are not the type of woods, the pickups, or even the more expensive hardware like the machineheads (although they may be on the list, but further up), but the cheapest parts... the ones where penny-pinching on the quality makes the least difference to the final price.

Cheap output jack sockets caused the most issues on the Harley Bentons we have had for pickup demo work. followed by cheap and nasty pots, flimsy switches and lack of shielding. Machine head issues seem common, and we have run across ones with very poorly cut nuts. 

To be fair, I've got a Gibson that had a very poorly cut nut, and I had to replace the selector switch when it was less than a year old.

I had a 2011 Gibson SG that from the factory had a badly cut nut, a comedy high action, noisy pots and a jack socket that was loose as a lady of negotiable virtue's moral stance. It had the 'circuit board' control layout ... so I just ditched the lot ... along with the crap machine heads ... so quality control at Gibson can be as 'interesting' as at Harley Benton. At the time I had a Vintage brand SG Junior ... and the only thing better about the Gibson was the quality of the wood used. 

TTBZ

I've not played a Harley Benton but I really liked the Vintage guitars I've tried which seem to be basically the same. However as has been said I think it makes more sense to spend a bit more money from the off as you're likely to have all the upgrades already done for you.

I think Epiphones are a good middle ground. Can be had for stupid cheap 2nd hand but still have the proper body shape, Probuckers are actually decent, hardware and Grover tuners are pretty solid, fretwork has been good on all the ones I've played. The downsides are the headstock shape and the finish is a bit plasticcy. I'm also not a huge fan of the feel of cheap pots and the switch died on mine after a couple of years. Still, when you can get them used for £150 you can upgrade them bits and have a solid guitar for under £200, or fitted with some Oil Cities for under £350. My main gigging guitar was an Epiphone for years. Only stopped using it when I got a 70s MIJ LPC which was as good as any Gibson I've played (not tried any Custom Shops mind), certainly better than my band mates Studio which felt a bit basic in comparison.

thegummy

crunchman said:

Kittyfrisk said:

All the vibrations effect the tone.  When the body vibrates, that feeds back into the strings.  If it didn't, then a Les Paul, a 335 and an SG all have the same scale length, and electronics and would sound exactly the same plugged in - but they don't.  The wood and the construction do make a difference.

@crunchman ;
 Once again, I refer you (me, everyone) to this https://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/154250/gringos-clean-test-can-you-pass/p1

I didn't see that before.  I'm at work at the moment.  I'll have a listen at home sometime in the next couple of days.

Whatever the outcome of that, my 335 sounds different from my Les Paul, and they both sound different from my old SG.

Interestingly, the SG sounded very similar to my PRS S2 Singlecut Satin - both all mahogany bodies with no maple cap.  Co-incidence?

The big clinchers for me that wood affects tone have been some PRS guitars that I've owned and played.  I had a rosewood necked (whole neck not just fingerboard) McCarty for a while.  That sounded very different to the regular mahogany necked version, which is otherwise identical.  I've played some other PRS guitars with rosewood necks, and they have a very characteristic tone.  It's definitely the wood.

A lot of people can hear the difference between different types of wood in specific parts of a guitar when they know what the guitar they're hearing is made of.

Yet in that thread linked above I don't think anyone was able to tell which was which between totally different guitars when they didn't already know.

Is that a coincidence?

Sassafras

thegummy said:

crunchman said:

Kittyfrisk said:

All the vibrations effect the tone.  When the body vibrates, that feeds back into the strings.  If it didn't, then a Les Paul, a 335 and an SG all have the same scale length, and electronics and would sound exactly the same plugged in - but they don't.  The wood and the construction do make a difference.

@crunchman ;
 Once again, I refer you (me, everyone) to this https://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/154250/gringos-clean-test-can-you-pass/p1

I didn't see that before.  I'm at work at the moment.  I'll have a listen at home sometime in the next couple of days.

Whatever the outcome of that, my 335 sounds different from my Les Paul, and they both sound different from my old SG.

Interestingly, the SG sounded very similar to my PRS S2 Singlecut Satin - both all mahogany bodies with no maple cap.  Co-incidence?

The big clinchers for me that wood affects tone have been some PRS guitars that I've owned and played.  I had a rosewood necked (whole neck not just fingerboard) McCarty for a while.  That sounded very different to the regular mahogany necked version, which is otherwise identical.  I've played some other PRS guitars with rosewood necks, and they have a very characteristic tone.  It's definitely the wood.

A lot of people can hear the difference between different types of wood in specific parts of a guitar when they know what the guitar they're hearing is made of.

Yet in that thread linked above I don't think anyone was able to tell which was which between totally different guitars when they didn't already know.

Is that a coincidence?

I also think there's a big difference between hearing sound clips on the Internet and hearing them in the room.

rossi

The problem with all comparisons of wood and "this  wood sounds different to that "argument is the fact that pickup technology is very unstable so having the same  type of pickup in two guitars is no guide to them being identical.toss in the plus /minus values of all  electrical components and you realise that comparison is impossible and wishful thinking .

OilCityPickups

thegummy said:

crunchman said:

Kittyfrisk said:

All the vibrations effect the tone.  When the body vibrates, that feeds back into the strings.  If it didn't, then a Les Paul, a 335 and an SG all have the same scale length, and electronics and would sound exactly the same plugged in - but they don't.  The wood and the construction do make a difference.

@crunchman ;
 Once again, I refer you (me, everyone) to this https://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/154250/gringos-clean-test-can-you-pass/p1

I didn't see that before.  I'm at work at the moment.  I'll have a listen at home sometime in the next couple of days.

Whatever the outcome of that, my 335 sounds different from my Les Paul, and they both sound different from my old SG.

Interestingly, the SG sounded very similar to my PRS S2 Singlecut Satin - both all mahogany bodies with no maple cap.  Co-incidence?

The big clinchers for me that wood affects tone have been some PRS guitars that I've owned and played.  I had a rosewood necked (whole neck not just fingerboard) McCarty for a while.  That sounded very different to the regular mahogany necked version, which is otherwise identical.  I've played some other PRS guitars with rosewood necks, and they have a very characteristic tone.  It's definitely the wood.

A lot of people can hear the difference between different types of wood in specific parts of a guitar when they know what the guitar they're hearing is made of.

Yet in that thread linked above I don't think anyone was able to tell which was which between totally different guitars when they didn't already know.

Is that a coincidence?

The Tonewoods argument has been done to death here ... My own viewpoint comes from 45 years of building, setting up and playing guitars ... and latterly making pickups.
The argument for tonewoods has been overstated, but then the argument against has been equally over stated. My view is that 90% of a solid electric guitar's tone comes from its pickups. The remaining 10% is divided between the coupling of the strings to the body and the density of the woods (or plastics etc) used. 

thegummy

Sassafras said:

thegummy said:

crunchman said:

Kittyfrisk said:

All the vibrations effect the tone.  When the body vibrates, that feeds back into the strings.  If it didn't, then a Les Paul, a 335 and an SG all have the same scale length, and electronics and would sound exactly the same plugged in - but they don't.  The wood and the construction do make a difference.

@crunchman ;
 Once again, I refer you (me, everyone) to this https://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/154250/gringos-clean-test-can-you-pass/p1

I didn't see that before.  I'm at work at the moment.  I'll have a listen at home sometime in the next couple of days.

Whatever the outcome of that, my 335 sounds different from my Les Paul, and they both sound different from my old SG.

Interestingly, the SG sounded very similar to my PRS S2 Singlecut Satin - both all mahogany bodies with no maple cap.  Co-incidence?

The big clinchers for me that wood affects tone have been some PRS guitars that I've owned and played.  I had a rosewood necked (whole neck not just fingerboard) McCarty for a while.  That sounded very different to the regular mahogany necked version, which is otherwise identical.  I've played some other PRS guitars with rosewood necks, and they have a very characteristic tone.  It's definitely the wood.

A lot of people can hear the difference between different types of wood in specific parts of a guitar when they know what the guitar they're hearing is made of.

Yet in that thread linked above I don't think anyone was able to tell which was which between totally different guitars when they didn't already know.

Is that a coincidence?

I also think there's a big difference between hearing sound clips on the Internet and hearing them in the room.

What about micced through a PA system then?

Cause even if you can hear the differences in a room with the amp but not when micced through a PA or recorded and played back then isn't it completely pointless anyway?

Not that I actually think there would be better results if the test had been done by the people being in the same room as the amp, it's just a get-out because that test is much more hassle to actually carry out.

thegummy

OilCityPickups said:

thegummy said:

crunchman said:

Kittyfrisk said:

All the vibrations effect the tone.  When the body vibrates, that feeds back into the strings.  If it didn't, then a Les Paul, a 335 and an SG all have the same scale length, and electronics and would sound exactly the same plugged in - but they don't.  The wood and the construction do make a difference.

@crunchman ;
 Once again, I refer you (me, everyone) to this https://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/154250/gringos-clean-test-can-you-pass/p1

I didn't see that before.  I'm at work at the moment.  I'll have a listen at home sometime in the next couple of days.

Whatever the outcome of that, my 335 sounds different from my Les Paul, and they both sound different from my old SG.

Interestingly, the SG sounded very similar to my PRS S2 Singlecut Satin - both all mahogany bodies with no maple cap.  Co-incidence?

The big clinchers for me that wood affects tone have been some PRS guitars that I've owned and played.  I had a rosewood necked (whole neck not just fingerboard) McCarty for a while.  That sounded very different to the regular mahogany necked version, which is otherwise identical.  I've played some other PRS guitars with rosewood necks, and they have a very characteristic tone.  It's definitely the wood.

A lot of people can hear the difference between different types of wood in specific parts of a guitar when they know what the guitar they're hearing is made of.

Yet in that thread linked above I don't think anyone was able to tell which was which between totally different guitars when they didn't already know.

Is that a coincidence?

The Tonewoods argument has been done to death here ... My own viewpoint comes from 45 years of building, setting up and playing guitars ... and latterly making pickups.
The argument for tonewoods has been overstated, but then the argument against has been equally over stated. My view is that 90% of a solid electric guitar's tone comes from its pickups. The remaining 10% is divided between the coupling of the strings to the body and the density of the woods (or plastics etc) used. 

I agree that the argument has been done and it's pointless to continue until any actual evidence comes about.

I'm not saying one way or the other about the tonewood debate, just that listening to a sound when the person knows what they're listening to isn't a reliable way to find out (and that's backed up by lots of evidence).

I do have an unanswered question about the issue though - if it is true that the body wood vibrating affects how the strings vibrate - is that caused by the body wood sending the vibrations through the bridge back in to the strings or is it the body wood directly affecting the strings by being close to them across most of the body?

Nikc

OilCityPickups said:

thegummy said:

crunchman said:

Kittyfrisk said:

All the vibrations effect the tone.  When the body vibrates, that feeds back into the strings.  If it didn't, then a Les Paul, a 335 and an SG all have the same scale length, and electronics and would sound exactly the same plugged in - but they don't.  The wood and the construction do make a difference.

@crunchman ;
 Once again, I refer you (me, everyone) to this https://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/154250/gringos-clean-test-can-you-pass/p1

I didn't see that before.  I'm at work at the moment.  I'll have a listen at home sometime in the next couple of days.

Whatever the outcome of that, my 335 sounds different from my Les Paul, and they both sound different from my old SG.

Interestingly, the SG sounded very similar to my PRS S2 Singlecut Satin - both all mahogany bodies with no maple cap.  Co-incidence?

The big clinchers for me that wood affects tone have been some PRS guitars that I've owned and played.  I had a rosewood necked (whole neck not just fingerboard) McCarty for a while.  That sounded very different to the regular mahogany necked version, which is otherwise identical.  I've played some other PRS guitars with rosewood necks, and they have a very characteristic tone.  It's definitely the wood.

A lot of people can hear the difference between different types of wood in specific parts of a guitar when they know what the guitar they're hearing is made of.

Yet in that thread linked above I don't think anyone was able to tell which was which between totally different guitars when they didn't already know.

Is that a coincidence?

The Tonewoods argument has been done to death here ... My own viewpoint comes from 45 years of building, setting up and playing guitars ... and latterly making pickups.
The argument for tonewoods has been overstated, but then the argument against has been equally over stated. My view is that 90% of a solid electric guitar's tone comes from its pickups. The remaining 10% is divided between the coupling of the strings to the body and the density of the woods (or plastics etc) used. 

Yep would have to go along with that, I also think that the 'feel' of the guitar has an impact on the player which in turn effects the sound. But that is (to paraphrase The Cranberries) 'in your head' still effects the tone though  

OilCityPickups

thegummy said:

OilCityPickups said:

thegummy said:

crunchman said:

Kittyfrisk said:

All the vibrations effect the tone.  When the body vibrates, that feeds back into the strings.  If it didn't, then a Les Paul, a 335 and an SG all have the same scale length, and electronics and would sound exactly the same plugged in - but they don't.  The wood and the construction do make a difference.

@crunchman ;
 Once again, I refer you (me, everyone) to this https://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/154250/gringos-clean-test-can-you-pass/p1

I didn't see that before.  I'm at work at the moment.  I'll have a listen at home sometime in the next couple of days.

Whatever the outcome of that, my 335 sounds different from my Les Paul, and they both sound different from my old SG.

Interestingly, the SG sounded very similar to my PRS S2 Singlecut Satin - both all mahogany bodies with no maple cap.  Co-incidence?

The big clinchers for me that wood affects tone have been some PRS guitars that I've owned and played.  I had a rosewood necked (whole neck not just fingerboard) McCarty for a while.  That sounded very different to the regular mahogany necked version, which is otherwise identical.  I've played some other PRS guitars with rosewood necks, and they have a very characteristic tone.  It's definitely the wood.

A lot of people can hear the difference between different types of wood in specific parts of a guitar when they know what the guitar they're hearing is made of.

Yet in that thread linked above I don't think anyone was able to tell which was which between totally different guitars when they didn't already know.

Is that a coincidence?

The Tonewoods argument has been done to death here ... My own viewpoint comes from 45 years of building, setting up and playing guitars ... and latterly making pickups.
The argument for tonewoods has been overstated, but then the argument against has been equally over stated. My view is that 90% of a solid electric guitar's tone comes from its pickups. The remaining 10% is divided between the coupling of the strings to the body and the density of the woods (or plastics etc) used. 

I agree that the argument has been done and it's pointless to continue until any actual evidence comes about.

I'm not saying one way or the other about the tonewood debate, just that listening to a sound when the person knows what they're listening to isn't a reliable way to find out (and that's backed up by lots of evidence).

I do have an unanswered question about the issue though - if it is true that the body wood vibrating affects how the strings vibrate - is that caused by the body wood sending the vibrations through the bridge back in to the strings or is it the body wood directly affecting the strings by being close to them across most of the body?

I won't get drawn into wood sending vibrations to strings ... but what I will say (and I've stated this lots, and done a lot of practical experimentation on it) is that pickups act as 'contact microphones' as well as straight 'inductors', and thus most pickups unless they are potted in a hard medium such as epoxy send some of the actual 'acoustic' sound of the body to the amp. That sound can interact with the strings because it's in the air and vibrating them via the amplifier, and if it goes too far the guitar will go into howl or feedback. Too much of this pickup microphony is a bad thing, but too little causes pickups to sound characterless and cold.

thegummy

OilCityPickups said:

I won't get drawn into wood sending vibrations to strings ... but what I will say (and I've stated this lots, and done a lot of practical experimentation on it) is that pickups act as 'contact microphones' as well as straight 'inductors', and thus most pickups unless they are potted in a hard medium such as epoxy send some of the actual 'acoustic' sound of the body to the amp. That sound can interact with the strings because it's in the air and vibrating them via the amplifier, and if it goes too far the guitar will go into howl or feedback. Too much of this pickup microphony is a bad thing, but too little causes pickups to sound characterless and cold.

See that's very interesting to me.

People seem to be so convinced that the pickup can only pick up string vibrations and nothing else.

But when I have a guitar plugged in, use my hand to completely mute the strings then bang or knock on the body, the knocking comes through the amp. So I've always wondered how that could be possible if the pickups only pick up string vibrations and have always thought there must be more to it.

crunchman

thegummy said:

crunchman said:

Kittyfrisk said:

All the vibrations effect the tone.  When the body vibrates, that feeds back into the strings.  If it didn't, then a Les Paul, a 335 and an SG all have the same scale length, and electronics and would sound exactly the same plugged in - but they don't.  The wood and the construction do make a difference.

@crunchman ;
 Once again, I refer you (me, everyone) to this https://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/154250/gringos-clean-test-can-you-pass/p1

I didn't see that before.  I'm at work at the moment.  I'll have a listen at home sometime in the next couple of days.

Whatever the outcome of that, my 335 sounds different from my Les Paul, and they both sound different from my old SG.

Interestingly, the SG sounded very similar to my PRS S2 Singlecut Satin - both all mahogany bodies with no maple cap.  Co-incidence?

The big clinchers for me that wood affects tone have been some PRS guitars that I've owned and played.  I had a rosewood necked (whole neck not just fingerboard) McCarty for a while.  That sounded very different to the regular mahogany necked version, which is otherwise identical.  I've played some other PRS guitars with rosewood necks, and they have a very characteristic tone.  It's definitely the wood.

A lot of people can hear the difference between different types of wood in specific parts of a guitar when they know what the guitar they're hearing is made of.

Yet in that thread linked above I don't think anyone was able to tell which was which between totally different guitars when they didn't already know.

Is that a coincidence?

Have you ever played a rosewood neck McCarty alongside a regular one?  If you had, then you wouldn't even be having this conversation.  There is a definite difference in sound.

I could pick out some of the guitars in that thread, but not all.  The Strat was obvious, and the thin plinky sounding Jazzmasters were obviously some kind of Fender type.  I thought the thinline Tele with humbuckers was the 335, but I could tell it was semi-hollow.

It would be interesting to do a similar exercise with an amp with more mid-range push, and a bit of drive on it.  That would be far more representative of how most of us use them.  That scooped Fender clean tone does remove a lot of the mid-range beef of the humbucker guitars, and makes them a lot harder to distinguish.

Sassafras

thegummy said:

Sassafras said:

thegummy said:

crunchman said:

Kittyfrisk said:

All the vibrations effect the tone.  When the body vibrates, that feeds back into the strings.  If it didn't, then a Les Paul, a 335 and an SG all have the same scale length, and electronics and would sound exactly the same plugged in - but they don't.  The wood and the construction do make a difference.

@crunchman ;
 Once again, I refer you (me, everyone) to this https://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/154250/gringos-clean-test-can-you-pass/p1

I didn't see that before.  I'm at work at the moment.  I'll have a listen at home sometime in the next couple of days.

Whatever the outcome of that, my 335 sounds different from my Les Paul, and they both sound different from my old SG.

Interestingly, the SG sounded very similar to my PRS S2 Singlecut Satin - both all mahogany bodies with no maple cap.  Co-incidence?

The big clinchers for me that wood affects tone have been some PRS guitars that I've owned and played.  I had a rosewood necked (whole neck not just fingerboard) McCarty for a while.  That sounded very different to the regular mahogany necked version, which is otherwise identical.  I've played some other PRS guitars with rosewood necks, and they have a very characteristic tone.  It's definitely the wood.

A lot of people can hear the difference between different types of wood in specific parts of a guitar when they know what the guitar they're hearing is made of.

Yet in that thread linked above I don't think anyone was able to tell which was which between totally different guitars when they didn't already know.

Is that a coincidence?

I also think there's a big difference between hearing sound clips on the Internet and hearing them in the room.

What about micced through a PA system then?

Cause even if you can hear the differences in a room with the amp but not when micced through a PA or recorded and played back then isn't it completely pointless anyway?

Not that I actually think there would be better results if the test had been done by the people being in the same room as the amp, it's just a get-out because that test is much more hassle to actually carry out.

I don't know.
I didn't say anything about PA or recording and playback.

ICBM

It's the same old conundrum...

In a full band mix, all electric guitars sound the same to a high degree of accuracy - about the only really identifiable sound is the Strat in-between, because it has a unique harmonic signature caused by the spacing of the pickups. But when you're playing the guitar yourself, you can often tell the tone difference between fingerboard woods, for example.

Both things are true at the same time and one does not disprove the other.

guitars4you

I think it is far easier to detect differences between 2 guitars when you are actually playing them yourself - Certainly compared to any computer monitors via youtube demo's - Some differences with an actual hand on test are more subtle than others - ie 2 Strats or as @crunchman states above, a PRS McCarty with a mahogany neck or rosewood neck - I think this is partly as you are putting your own playing and emotion into the guitar to see how it handles and responds - Stoke the strings or attack them - Long moody slow bends or cascading licks etc

Agree with @ICBM above that in the mix, that subtle differences are largely lost, certainly to the 'audience' - A player can still pick up how the guitar responds to his needs though

I still have a big belief that the feel and playability of the guitar has a major impact on how happy/content you are about the guitar - Hard to get a great tone out of a guitar you are not comfortable about playing 

Ultimately there is no measurement of a guitars quality, tone, playability etc other than your hands and ears, or indeed opinion - Hang a HB on the wall and an R8 then stand back a few paces and they look similar - Look at the spec and features and they look similar - No new fancy ipad spec and features to consider, or BHP or 0-60 etc - But your hands and ears and can detect many subtle variations

Agree about the diminishing returns syndrome

Call me a guitar snob if you like, but I still prefer the feel, tone and response I get from one of my pride and joys, that I'm fortunate to own, than I would from many other 'more affordable' guitars' - Yet as @p90fool ; stated earlier, there are many cool guitars that possess a different character that still makes you smile 

OilCityPickups

thegummy said:

OilCityPickups said:

I won't get drawn into wood sending vibrations to strings ... but what I will say (and I've stated this lots, and done a lot of practical experimentation on it) is that pickups act as 'contact microphones' as well as straight 'inductors', and thus most pickups unless they are potted in a hard medium such as epoxy send some of the actual 'acoustic' sound of the body to the amp. That sound can interact with the strings because it's in the air and vibrating them via the amplifier, and if it goes too far the guitar will go into howl or feedback. Too much of this pickup microphony is a bad thing, but too little causes pickups to sound characterless and cold.

See that's very interesting to me.

People seem to be so convinced that the pickup can only pick up string vibrations and nothing else.

But when I have a guitar plugged in, use my hand to completely mute the strings then bang or knock on the body, the knocking comes through the amp. So I've always wondered how that could be possible if the pickups only pick up string vibrations and have always thought there must be more to it.

A 'perfect' pickup would indeed only read the strings vibration. However 'perfect' pickups don't actually sound that good. The skill in pickup making is to know which 'imperfections' are the beneficial ones.

Anyone who expounds the rubbish that 'a pickup (particularly a PAF design) can only pick up string vibrations and nothing else' is totally deluded.

PolarityMan

OilCityPickups said:

thegummy said:

OilCityPickups said:

I won't get drawn into wood sending vibrations to strings ... but what I will say (and I've stated this lots, and done a lot of practical experimentation on it) is that pickups act as 'contact microphones' as well as straight 'inductors', and thus most pickups unless they are potted in a hard medium such as epoxy send some of the actual 'acoustic' sound of the body to the amp. That sound can interact with the strings because it's in the air and vibrating them via the amplifier, and if it goes too far the guitar will go into howl or feedback. Too much of this pickup microphony is a bad thing, but too little causes pickups to sound characterless and cold.

See that's very interesting to me.

People seem to be so convinced that the pickup can only pick up string vibrations and nothing else.

But when I have a guitar plugged in, use my hand to completely mute the strings then bang or knock on the body, the knocking comes through the amp. So I've always wondered how that could be possible if the pickups only pick up string vibrations and have always thought there must be more to it.

A 'perfect' pickup would indeed only read the strings vibration. However 'perfect' pickups don't actually sound that good. The skill in pickup making is to know which 'imperfections' are the beneficial ones.

Anyone who expounds the rubbish that 'a pickup (particularly a PAF design) can only pick up string vibrations and nothing else' is totally deluded.

Ineed theres a simple experiement to prove it. Unstring a guitar, plug it into a loud amp and tap on the pickup.