2020 Fretboard Virtual Running Club

Deadman

Flanging_Fred said:

Help!

I tried the couch to 5k when lock down started.  I’ve tried it twice before but each time I get to about week 5 (running for about 20 minutes) my knees pretty much collapse in pain both underneath and on top for the kneecap. It was very painful to walk for about 10 days and I had to put bags of frozen peas on my knees to take the pain away. 

Can anyone give me some advice of what to do (other than “stop trying”).  I really need and want to improve my fitness and lose some weight but this puts the brakes on it every time. I need to do something differently but don’t know what.

I had running shoes properly fitted at a specialist running shop so I don’t think it’s incorrect footwear. 

Are you 'very' overweight mate? Sorry to be so personal but it sounds like your knees aren't up to the task at this stage. You might need to shift a few pounds by starting in the kitchen before you focus on the fitness if so?

If you're not particularly overweight then the fact that you're getting 20 minutes in means you'll want to be stopping right around that point for a good month or so and gently ease yourself into the rest. Don't worry about keeping to the programme and listen to what your body is telling you. Just take it really steadily.

PolarityMan

Flanging_Fred said:

Help!

I tried the couch to 5k when lock down started.  I’ve tried it twice before but each time I get to about week 5 (running for about 20 minutes) my knees pretty much collapse in pain both underneath and on top for the kneecap. It was very painful to walk for about 10 days and I had to put bags of frozen peas on my knees to take the pain away. 

Can anyone give me some advice of what to do (other than “stop trying”).  I really need and want to improve my fitness and lose some weight but this puts the brakes on it every time. I need to do something differently but don’t know what.

I had running shoes properly fitted at a specialist running shop so I don’t think it’s incorrect footwear. 

I did a couch to 5k during lockdown and i found reducing the number of runs helped. I went pretty hard at it running 6 days out of 7 for the first few weeks and ended up with sore knees and ankles. I've settled into 3 runs a week now and 5k in 30 mins is still tough but I can do it consistently. Best time is 29:19.

For me though cardiovascular fitness is definitely my limiting factor rather than my knees every 5k still feels hard and im sweating buckets by the end but i figure that improving general fitness is a long game. 

steven70

Flanging_Fred said:

Help!

I tried the couch to 5k when lock down started.  I’ve tried it twice before but each time I get to about week 5 (running for about 20 minutes) my knees pretty much collapse in pain both underneath and on top for the kneecap. It was very painful to walk for about 10 days and I had to put bags of frozen peas on my knees to take the pain away. 

Can anyone give me some advice of what to do (other than “stop trying”).  I really need and want to improve my fitness and lose some weight but this puts the brakes on it every time. I need to do something differently but don’t know what.

I had running shoes properly fitted at a specialist running shop so I don’t think it’s incorrect footwear. 

As someone else has said- when you have recovered and are ready to start again, try 3 x 20 mins runs per week, making sure you have at least one day off between. You can do something else on the other days - maybe cycling. Or rowing if you can get hold of a machine.

See how this goes for a month or so.

Also, there are some stretches you can do to help manage knee pain, plenty on line.

Def keep it up it you can, I reckon it'll get easier as your body adjusts.

Cheers and good luck:) 

mcsdan

Flanging_Fred said:

Help!

I tried the couch to 5k when lock down started.  I’ve tried it twice before but each time I get to about week 5 (running for about 20 minutes) my knees pretty much collapse in pain both underneath and on top for the kneecap. It was very painful to walk for about 10 days and I had to put bags of frozen peas on my knees to take the pain away. 

Can anyone give me some advice of what to do (other than “stop trying”).  I really need and want to improve my fitness and lose some weight but this puts the brakes on it every time. I need to do something differently but don’t know what.

I had running shoes properly fitted at a specialist running shop so I don’t think it’s incorrect footwear. 

As above weight could be an issue. However other factors that can affect it. Some general advice that may help.

1. Slow down - most people doing c25k start off too quick and the 20 min mark is where it tends to hit.  You should aim to finish each run with a bit in the tank. If that isn't the case then repeat that week until you feel like you could do more before moving on. Everyone has a point in the program where it suddenly becomes hard and an extra week of the same helps. Slowing down helps with tendons/muscles adapting and helps build the aerobic base. This is like the foundations of a house.

2. Make sure you have a days rest in between runs. I'm sure most c25k programs have 3 runs a week so easy to leave a days rest in between plus a 2 day break once a week. You need this time for tendons, muscles and energy systems to recover. Don't do other exercise involving legs on the rest days. Swimming is good however.

3. Check your running form. Often knee pain in runners is due to incorrect technique. Many run by landing on their heel out in front of the body. It should land under your knee not in front of it. Look up heel striking on youtube - many videos to show this. It is a very easy fix - shorten your stride but increase slightly how quick your feet move (cadence). It'll feel like you are taking smaller steps more frequently but that is the idea - less chance for foot to land in front of your knee and foot lands beneath your center of mass which helps in weight distribution.

Make sure your head is up. A common analogy is to imagine a helium balloon tied to the top of your head pulling it up. This helps with posture as you run which is a massive issue with running form and injury.

My initial thought behind the specific knee pain you mention is that you have tight /weak quads and possibly a tight IT band. These can be caused by over striding/heel striking as mentioned above. The IT band in particular is a common injury.

4. Make sure you warm up (see next point)

5. Look at some basic strength work. Knee problems can also be caused by weakness above or below the knee itself. A basic bodyweight program will massively help and can be done before the run so that you aren't exercising too much too often. For example,

• body weight squats - make sure knees don't go over your toes and are inline with your foot - no caving in to inside or outside.
  
• glute bridges
• clams
• press ups
• planks (30seconds)
  

Start with 2 sets of 10 reps for each exercise before moving onto the next. Do reps slow and controlled. Once you are happy with routine add an extra couple of reps each week upto 20 max.

A routine like this can be done in 15-20 mins very easily and can serve as a warm up to the run. Suggest you do before the run rather than a different day otherwise your legs wont get a proper rest. Do 1-2 times per week.

6. Make sure you stretch off after your run. Concentrate on calf stretch, quad stretch and hamstring stretch as a minimum but also consider hips, inner thighs, IT Band and mid back. It is also a good time to allow breathing to return to normal and allow a cool down to begin.

Recovery is key with any training program. Running too much as a beginner is a sure way to get injured. The running is the stimulus to the body which it adapts and gets stronger/fitter during recovery.  3 times a week of running is more than sufficient for a beginner and allows 4 days of recovery. It takes time to build fitness and usually around 3 weeks to see changes and get the physical adaptions in your body. Patience is key especially in the beginning weeks.

Can be worth finding a local club or coach who can take a look at how you run and provide feedback. Most will be more than happy to help.

Hope this helps

Rich210

Flanging_Fred said:

Help!

I tried the couch to 5k when lock down started.  I’ve tried it twice before but each time I get to about week 5 (running for about 20 minutes) my knees pretty much collapse in pain both underneath and on top for the kneecap. It was very painful to walk for about 10 days and I had to put bags of frozen peas on my knees to take the pain away. 

Can anyone give me some advice of what to do (other than “stop trying”).  I really need and want to improve my fitness and lose some weight but this puts the brakes on it every time. I need to do something differently but don’t know what.

I had running shoes properly fitted at a specialist running shop so I don’t think it’s incorrect footwear. 

Hiya mate, this can happen! I got bad shin splints once from over doing it which was a pain! 

Always treat plans as 'guides' that can be changed. Listen to your body is a motto often used and it's true! No matter how many gadgets there are or plans available ultimately its the body that has the last say. 

Rest is key to good development in running or in any other training. If you feel your knees need a rest then give them a good rest, maybe 2 to 3 days off then go out for a walk with a little bit of jogging in between just to get a sense of where you're knees are at. 

Jarring knees might also be a symptom of poor technique, it's worth practicing running on your forefoot now and again as this is the best technique for injury prevention, but it takes time for the ligaments in your ankles to build up strength. Over time you'll be running on your forefoot naturally (rather than heel to toe) and your knees will thank you for it. 


it's important to build up and work within your limits while progressively increasing your training load. Don't be put off by just having a decent walk! Time on your legs walking is still time in the bank, not only is good for base training it's helping with bone density. 

Rich210

And weight loss wise, I found that nothing beats eating veggies, salads and pulses and drinking lots of water

BigMonka

My lockdown running took an unexpected turn when I managed to get my kids involved - they're aged 6 and 9. they just seem to want to run further and further! We've been doing a regular family 10k on sunday mornings now, which is amazing as they're both quite small (even for their age).

The last couple of weeks they've been trying to improve their 5k times. The 9year old managed her first sub 30min 5k on a day that was pretty hot, whilst the 6 year old managed a 31:45 and is keen to get it under 30min too. It's fun to be part of their running journey and to spend some alone time with each of them (my wife takes them out running too).

Flanging_Fred

Thank you everyone for all the advice. There is a lot there to take in.  I’ve was following the c25k pretty accurately, only running 3 timed a week with rest days. A couple of times I redid a week as it was getting difficult.

I think in terms of weight I think I need to shift a couple of stone, not massive, but not insignificant either.

Interesting that some of the advice here contradicts what c25k says.  On the podcast it says to plant your heel on the ground first, is this incorrect?

Rich210

Flanging_Fred said:

Thank you everyone for all the advice. There is a lot there to take in.  I’ve was following the c25k pretty accurately, only running 3 timed a week with rest days. A couple of times I redid a week as it was getting difficult.

I think in terms of weight I think I need to shift a couple of stone, not massive, but not insignificant either.

Interesting that some of the advice here contradicts what c25k says.  On the podcast it says to plant your heel on the ground first, is this incorrect?

Yeah it is incorrect, natural running should be on the forefoot. HOWEVER, if you tried running like that all the time  you're bound to get injured really quickly. Heel planting to start is a safer bet for people that are just getting into it. But because you say your knee is aggrevated from the running I'd recommend you introduce a little bit of running on your forefoot as well as what you're used to. 

It does take time to build up to it, there might be some plans out there but you could just use some common sense like a minute of walking a minute of running heel to toe and 30 seconds of forefoot plant. Or even less time duration and more walking. Have a look for some videos on technique I'm pretty sure Newton running shoes website will have a good demo, their trainers are designed around that running philosophy. 

Just remember though because the technique is different you'll be using different muscles in your legs, so if you started doing squats but your really good at deadlifts, you're not going to squatting big weights because those muscles aren't conditioned. 

The annoying thing about running for most people is injury susceptibility, but that's usually down to a combination of poor technique, preexisting issues, and over doing it. If you're not feeling up to an actual run just go for a decent walk, it all counts. You'll soon build up endurance. 

mcsdan

Flanging_Fred said:

Interesting that some of the advice here contradicts what c25k says.  On the podcast it says to plant your heel on the ground first, is this incorrect?

  It's more of where your heel lands as opposed to which part of the foot. Hence keeping foot under the knee. Shortening your stride and upping the cadence(speed of feet) reduces the heel landing out in front of the body.

Fore/mid foot is usually too advanced for beginners and they tend to injury achilles/feet/calves. Also depends upon speed/distance you run which can change gait.

So simply reduce your stride and have slightly quicker feet and it should take care of the foot landing out front on the heel. If you land on the heel but it is under your knee/body then not an issue.

fields5069

Just had a surprisingly fast run this morning, feels good.

A mate likes to run "barefoot-style", much as I do in my sandals, and he always mentions screaming calf muscles as a side-effect. He always knows what's correct, so I usually just nod, but I don't get screaming calf muscles. My fore-foot or more probably mid-foot lands first, but the heel then always comes down afterwards. You know if you've been sloppy in sandals because you may get a slightly bruised heel, but I'm usually OK.

Note that in regular trainers, due to the greater stack height at the heel, correct running form will probably have you landing pretty much flat-footed, not on the fore/mid-foot.

Rich210

mcsdan said:

Flanging_Fred said:

Interesting that some of the advice here contradicts what c25k says.  On the podcast it says to plant your heel on the ground first, is this incorrect?

  It's more of where your heel lands as opposed to which part of the foot. Hence keeping foot under the knee. Shortening your stride and upping the cadence(speed of feet) reduces the heel landing out in front of the body.

Fore/mid foot is usually too advanced for beginners and they tend to injury achilles/feet/calves. Also depends upon speed/distance you run which can change gait.

So simply reduce your stride and have slightly quicker feet and it should take care of the foot landing out front on the heel. If you land on the heel but it is under your knee/body then not an issue.

This! 

Redlester

Rich210 said:

Thinking of joining the club today! Not run that much at all for ages....and need some motivation and chat about running etc. I've always been into it and trained a bit at Stockport and mentored a lad that's become a very very good runner on the league scene so looking forward at keeping up with the thread!  I'm just starting off with little runs down the lane and back probably about 2k's worth for the next week or so. I run on the forefoot so the stiff calves always hit me bad early on of I do too much! 

Anyone else just getting back into it here?

@Rich210 I’m sort-of getting back into it. Here’s my story.

I got back into running last August when we were on holiday in Scotland. I took advantage of the emptier roads and would run a couple of miles from the house where we were staying down to the beach and back. 

When we got home I carried on right up until lockdown. I have a large local park nearby so I’d go out- on average four or five evenings a week- in all weathers for anything between 45 mins to an hour each night. I don’t really bother about distance. For me it’s just a chance to work up a sweat, keep my lungs healthy, and fit it in between everything else. 

Then came lockdown, folk were furloughed and all of a sudden the park was bloody jam packed! I even tried waking up really early in April and going out before 7am and it was even worse than in the day or evening!

 What with distancing and me not wanting to be breathing all over people, I was finding it pretty hard to find quiet spots for uninterrupted running. I guess I was too used to having it all to myself on autumn and winter evenings. 

Anyway, I’m hoping it’ll quieten down and I work it back into my timetable consistently again. I bought a new pair of fitted trainers the other day. My old pair were knackered- I actually darned the mesh upper at one point to stop my big toes poking through. Now the local running shop is open I’ve invested in some new pumps. 

Iamnobody

Redlester said:

Rich210 said:

Thinking of joining the club today! Not run that much at all for ages....and need some motivation and chat about running etc. I've always been into it and trained a bit at Stockport and mentored a lad that's become a very very good runner on the league scene so looking forward at keeping up with the thread!  I'm just starting off with little runs down the lane and back probably about 2k's worth for the next week or so. I run on the forefoot so the stiff calves always hit me bad early on of I do too much! 

Anyone else just getting back into it here?

@Rich210 I’m sort-of getting back into it. Here’s my story.

I got back into running last August when we were on holiday in Scotland. I took advantage of the emptier roads and would run a couple of miles from the house where we were staying down to the beach and back. 

When we got home I carried on right up until lockdown. I have a large local park nearby so I’d go out- on average four or five evenings a week- in all weathers for anything between 45 mins to an hour each night. I don’t really bother about distance. For me it’s just a chance to work up a sweat, keep my lungs healthy, and fit it in between everything else. 

Then came lockdown, folk were furloughed and all of a sudden the park was bloody jam packed! I even tried waking up really early in April and going out before 7am and it was even worse than in the day or evening!

 What with distancing and me not wanting to be breathing all over people, I was finding it pretty hard to find quiet spots for uninterrupted running. I guess I was too used to having it all to myself on autumn and winter evenings. 

Anyway, I’m hoping it’ll quieten down and I work it back into my timetable consistently again. I bought a new pair of fitted trainers the other day. My old pair were knackered- I actually darned the mesh upper at one point to stop my big toes poking through. Now the local running shop is open I’ve invested in some new pumps. 

What pumps? You now most of us are all gear and no idea. These things are important!

Also forget the park there’s plenty of other routes. 

Here’s a great book for the runners here - I haven’t finished it yet but I’m enjoying it!

https://blackwells.co.uk/bookshop/product/9780224091978?gC=5a105e8b&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIk6uhoJaY6gIVi5IYCh1LJgvuEAQYASABEgIr2fD_BwE

There aren’t many places in the U.K. that he hasn’t stamped on! He’s also spent time running overseas.

Redlester

@Iamnobody The pumps in question are blue pumps with soles that look like Marshmallows. The box tells me they are called Mizuno Wave Inspire 16. 

The shop I got them from were good. They video your foot as you run, explain the different types of ‘shoe’ and so on. Long story short my foot lands at such an angle that I was sold a pair that offers support as a corrective, like my last pair. 

The thing is I have to run in the park. I hate going along the road. In the park I can see the wildlife and I’m not breathing in car fumes. 

Rich210

@Redlester ;

Sounds like the lockdown has had the opposite effect on your routine! Crowds are never good at the best of times. I much prefer running in space and good fresh air! 

In regard to pumps I tend to go for neutral shoes, I don't think I over pronate, and try to run on my forefoot when I'm out! Although, I'm only running really short distances at the moment. 

For those that aren't sure a quick at home test is here: https://www.sportsshoes.com/support/running_articles/

This will give you a ball park idea of what kind of support you'll need. Everyone's feet are different along with the lasts of different trainers so it's worth figuring out what shoe works for you. Equally if your foot doesn't feel comfy in your shoe I'd recommend having a go at relacing them. I did this with some innovate trail shoes I've got, so I laced them to compensate for my wide foot and they're a million times more comfy. https://runrepeat.com/top-10-running-shoe-lacing-techniques

And btw your post promoted me to go for my 2km run, and I slipped in a very steep hill to walk up! 

Redlester

@Rich210 Yes I tried neutrals in the shop. I also tried some in grey that were very wide and boxy. Apparently it’s a design that allows the toes to spread on impact. I just thought they made me look like Bigfoot! 

I might go out tonight. If I leave it later I might see a bat or two. 

Rich210

Redlester said:

@Rich210 Yes I tried neutrals in the shop. I also tried some in grey that were very wide and boxy. Apparently it’s a design that allows the toes to spread on impact. I just thought they made me look like Bigfoot! 

I might go out tonight. If I leave it later I might see a bat or two. 

I'm a fan of a boxy trainer. it's been a long time now since I've done decent distances but your feet forgive you, there's nothing worse than pinch points on a big run! Enjoy the twilight run! 

PolarityMan

Rich210 said:

Flanging_Fred said:

Thank you everyone for all the advice. There is a lot there to take in.  I’ve was following the c25k pretty accurately, only running 3 timed a week with rest days. A couple of times I redid a week as it was getting difficult.

I think in terms of weight I think I need to shift a couple of stone, not massive, but not insignificant either.

Interesting that some of the advice here contradicts what c25k says.  On the podcast it says to plant your heel on the ground first, is this incorrect?

Yeah it is incorrect, natural running should be on the forefoot. HOWEVER, if you tried running like that all the time  you're bound to get injured really quickly. Heel planting to start is a safer bet for people that are just getting into it. But because you say your knee is aggrevated from the running I'd recommend you introduce a little bit of running on your forefoot as well as what you're used to. 

It does take time to build up to it, there might be some plans out there but you could just use some common sense like a minute of walking a minute of running heel to toe and 30 seconds of forefoot plant. Or even less time duration and more walking. Have a look for some videos on technique I'm pretty sure Newton running shoes website will have a good demo, their trainers are designed around that running philosophy. 

Just remember though because the technique is different you'll be using different muscles in your legs, so if you started doing squats but your really good at deadlifts, you're not going to squatting big weights because those muscles aren't conditioned. 

The annoying thing about running for most people is injury susceptibility, but that's usually down to a combination of poor technique, preexisting issues, and over doing it. If you're not feeling up to an actual run just go for a decent walk, it all counts. You'll soon build up endurance. 

Id have thought runnong on the forefoot is only really plausible past a certain pace as well, at 10k/hr its doable for me but any lower and its pretty uncomfortable due to shorter stride length. Above about 12 and its basically essential. 

fields5069

I thought about this at length. :-)

If you have shoes with any significant stack height, and like the majority of people you overpronate, you definitely need support on the inside of your soles. It's usually grey foam to signify that it's denser than the rest. But the thinner your soles, and the closer to the ground you are, the less that becomes an issue, since the ground will stop your foot rolling in too much. I still overpronate I'm sure, but with <= 5mm of rubber between me and the floor, it's not an issue.