2020 Fretboard Virtual Running Club

monquixote

TTony said:

RedRabbit said:

TTony said:

LoFi said:

That's a very steep incline!

Oh, maybe I over estimated it.  I didn’t measure, just thought that 4/5 degrees would be quite a gentle slope so guesstimated it at that. 

1 to 2 degrees is recommended to replicate wind resistance when running outside but I've got to admit that the slight incline on the treadmill always feels tougher than running on the flat outside to me.

As I live in a hilly area I had the idea of using a steeper incline so I'd be used to the hills when venturing out. All I really did was make it much harder than I had to and hit a brick wall around week 5 or 6 (whenever the first 20+ run is). I'm not necessarily saying reduce the incline but if you start finding the longer runs hard it's something you can look at changing. Speed and power can come later, it's mainly your lungs and heart you're working on when you first start out.

If your treadmill doesn't tell you what the incline is I'd get a spirit level app for your phone.  I don't know how accurate they are but it'll give you an idea.  

Top idea @RedRabbit ;

So I can now state with reasonable certainty that the treadmill is currently set at 2.3 degrees incline.

I've just looked ahead at the c25k schedule for the next couple of weeks and think that the treadmill might just be getting adjusted!  Plus I'm probably going to take @monquixote's advice from earlier in the thread and repeat a week or two.  See little point in extending the running time when it's still (very) hard work.   

I did also read the instructions with the c25k app in which it says "if you can at a slower pace, then you're running too quickly".  I'm walking at 4mph and running at 7mph, so I think speeds might be coming down too ...

The end of C25K is running for 30 mins so target 6 mins / km which is a nice sustainable pace and means you will complete the target distance. 

WiresDreamDisasters

mcsdan said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:

30seconds per-mile ?????

15-30 seconds in pace. Pace is usually given in minutes per mile or km. So you may run at say 9min 30 per mile pace ( written 9:30/mi ] so simply slow it down a tad by 15-30 seconds off the pace you’d normally run. You can also go by effort so if your normal pace for 3 miles is an 8/10 effort then just drop a tad off that so 7-7.5. It really depends on how you gauge your pace.. 

Right okay, I see what you're saying. Run it 15-30 seconds slower per-mile.

My average pace is 11:42/m. Not terribly great!

TTony

monquixote said:

The end of C25K is running for 30 mins so target 6 mins / km which is a nice sustainable pace and means you will complete the target distance. 

I'm probably pushing too hard too early.  Running on an incline (albeit only 2deg!) at 7mph is making it harder than I need, to be able to do 5k in 30mins.

I'm currently doing 1.7m (aka 2.7km) in 20mins of running/walking, timed per the app.  I normally do the 5min warm up and 5min cool down on a bike, hence only 20mins on the treadmill.

My objective is to use c25k to re-establish the discipline and get some basic fitness sorted out and then perhaps push on towards half-marathon distance and/or get the 5k time down to 25mins (ie 8mph).

Deadman

I've stopped focusing on C25k, running for time/distance etc. etc. because I always end up with an injury that puts me back. I find I push myself too hard and compete with my previous times almost every run. It's even more dangerous when I start looking at others times/distances.

Now I just monitor my heart rate and get up around the 85%  (of MHR) for a good half hour. It's working at the moment and expect I'll be able to increase my speeds when I get fitter (but still not go over 85% MHR). 

RedRabbit

Did just shy of 5km tonight. Was aiming for the sort of pace I was managing a couple of months ago but it proved too much for me and I had to call it quits earlier than I would have liked.

Not happy with myself for the month or so of inactivity. Just hope I've picked it up again in time to be ready for the May half marathon. Before tonight I was confident that I'd be able to cover the distance even if it was at a slow pace.  Not so sure now.

@TTony pacing is hugely important. The difference of just 1/2 km/h was the difference between me comfortably doing 6.5km yesterday and not managing 5km today. Don't worry about dropping the speed if it means you can cover the distance/time.

mcsdan

Running by heart rate is a very valuable tool. I do this alot myself to make sure I'm in the right zone for the run goal I'm aiming for. For example a long run will be in zone 2-3 depending how long (marathon in Z3, longer is more in Z2), a tempo run will be in zone 4, intervals maybe zone 5, easy runs z2. It also reflects your current fatigue/stress level and after a while you get to know what works for you. Several methods for working out heart rate zones with Karvonen method working best for me. (also known as reserve heart rate).https://www.topendsports.com/fitness/karvonen-formula.htm

A couple of years back I did a marathon run on treadmill to test out pacing. I started a bit slower than intended and increased by 15 seconds per mile every other mile. Each time I did this, heart rate went up by 2 bpm. Then at one point is rose by 5-6bpm which was too fast so backed it down. Very interesting to see how in tune the body is and reliable heart rate is.

mcsdan

It is important to also phase/cycle your efforts during a period of running. If you go all out each run with will burn out or injure yourself at some point. A better strategy is to use different days for different running goals. So you could have a high effort once a week, an easier jog, some much shorter/faster interval style or a longer slower distance. This develops difference aspects of your fitness, allows recovery from the training you've done previously and makes it more interesting. To compare:-

3 x 5km per week

 or

1 x 5km effort, 1 x 400m intervals/hill repeats (2-3km), 1 x longer slower off road run(5-8km).

(just an example, with same weekly distance but much more rounded development).

Also helps to have an easier/recovery week every so often e.g. every 4th week just back off the intensity and do all easy pace jogs.

If you compare say an elite runner like Mo Farah, he doesn't do 5km and 10km runs all the time. He'll mix it up to get different development from runs as needed. The longer slower runs builds aerobic ability. The shorter faster runs build strength and technique and the 5km gives you a guide to how you are progressing + distance specifc workout. Just an example btw.

mcsdan

For those doing c25k, I've coached many over the years and the biggest issue I see is going too fast too soon. Most people lack the aerobic ability to hold pace for a distance not the speed.  So slow the pace down, get your distance/time done and keep progressing. You'll be faster at the end of the c25k naturally since you'll have more aerobic capacity. Once you have 5km under your belt then you'll have a better idea of what pace you can run at.

You'll have good runs and bad runs. However simply move onto the next one. Running is affected by many variables including sleep, nutrition, recovery, stress, biomechanics and much more, all of which interplay with each other. If you are tired your mechanics can go adrift which then makes it less efficient to run and takes more energy. The opposite of what you need when you are tired.! Some days just don't work. Other times it's like you are flying. That's just running.

Every run you do gets you closer to the goal. Keep going. Keep progressing

Deadman

Excellent advice @mcsdan and kind of where I was coming from. I'm going to have a look at the Karvonen formula now, looks really informative.

I've been working off 220 minus age (49) =171.

Then to get percentage 171 x .85 (for 85%) = 145 bpm. I don't exceed that figure and if I do I back off.

In the past I haven't monitored and instead just gone hell for leather from the off which always resulted in injury. Like you say, it's an invaluable tool.

fields5069

Deadman said:

I've stopped focusing on C25k, running for time/distance etc. etc. because I always end up with an injury that puts me back. I find I push myself too hard and compete with my previous times almost every run. It's even more dangerous when I start looking at others times/distances.

Now I just monitor my heart rate and get up around the 85%  (of MHR) for a good half hour. It's working at the moment and expect I'll be able to increase my speeds when I get fitter (but still not go over 85% MHR). 

You could try it on a treadmill. I hate indoor running, but that's how I started getting in shape 15 years ago. The gym people recommended interval running as the best way to improve stamina quickly. So you can't really force the pace as it's programmed in.

mcsdan

Deadman said:

Excellent advice @mcsdan and kind of where I was coming from. I'm going to have a look at the Karvonen formula now, looks really informative.

I've been working off 220 minus age (49) =171.

Then to get percentage 171 x .85 (for 85%) = 145 bpm. I don't exceed that figure and if I do I back off.

In the past I haven't monitored and instead just gone hell for leather from the off which always resulted in injury. Like you say, it's an invaluable tool.

Yep, the old way of 220-age generally gives a much lower HR and also doesn't account for resting heart rate, max HR or your fitness. As an example I've run with people that have a max HR of around 175-180bpm. I've hit 205bpm on track intervals(flying 30s) so know my max HR is a tad higher than that. Likewise I know people with resting HR in the high 30's/low 40s where as mine is around the mid 50s. So it's that working reserve that matters and does vary alot between people. 

The Karvonen formula is well regarded and as I said above the one I've found matches up more to the effort I'm doing in relation to the heart rate zone based on runs I've done. 

Measuring power is also useful but can prove difficult for running. Polar claim to measure this in their running watches but not had any experience of those to date. I know cyclists tend to use power (FTP) as a more reliable indicator.

All good insight.

TTony

What do you use to measure heart rate when running?

I've got a blood pressure & heart rate (generally high 50s when resting, FWIW) monitor, but that's not really going to work when I'm on the treadmill  


[edit] remembers old FitBit HR in a drawer somewhere - would that do?

mcsdan

Yep fitbits are quite good actually for HR.

fields5069

I think wrist-based is OK as long as it stays put, which is quite high above the wrist bone. I used to have a chest strap, which even thought I lubricated the contacts with spit, used to read around 240 for the first 5 minutes of every run.

mcsdan

Wrist based HR is a bit hit and miss even on latest running watches . I've used fitbit for a while and seemed fine. I've also used garmin fenix3 and sunnto 9 which are way too heavy and give really bad inconsistent results with the watch moving around. Also used a chest strap in the past. Great success with the schoshe rhythm+ which links by bluetooth to an existing nonHR watch. I used that for several years with my Suunto Ambit 3 peak but Suunto are removing support so had to change watches. However for battery and ease of use I now use a garmin 945 watch with builtin HR. Seems fairly accurate for me and how I wear it. Has a neat feature that senses when going uphill and shows a different screen - have that set to pace and HR so I can track effort whilst ascending. Very interesting when I raced in Brecon Beacons up Pen y Fan 3 times!

fields5069

As far as watches go, I can recommend the Amazfit Stratos by Xiaomi. They're regularly £120-ish on eBay and it's quite a nice fully featured watch, a good colour touchscreen budget option for not much more than a basic Garmin. It has an App which integrates with Strava, though for some reason Strava takes the data and modifies it to make me look slower than I really am.

mcsdan

I've seen those in reviews a few times and get good reviews. I do use some specific features on the garmin 945 notably the navigation/mapping and long battery/charge on the go.  Most of my races are self navigation and although taking and using a map sometimes it isn't enough detail which the garmin does have. I'm extending distance of races next year too so being able to charge watch on the go helps keep it recording.  The Amazfit does look really good though so will investigate further...thanjs

fields5069

Ah well there's no mapping, although there is a breadcrumb feature which I haven't tried yet.

Deadman

I should have said, I'm on a treadmill with an onboard heart rate monitor for those asking. It's getting easier so pleased with my progress so far. I'm going to start posting my weight too, hope nobody minds. Just so I can look back. Start weight (6 Jan) was 14 st 0lbs. 10 Jan was 13st 12lbs.

King85

Anyone braved the storm? 

I got a couple of miles in and it wasn't too bad, got very wet feet though.