How to deal with a band member for the benefit of the band?

Musicwolf

I would agree that, whilst improvement is necessary across the board in order to get beyond the pub level, the vocals are;

a) the weakest link

b) the most important thing

As guitarists we believe that the music is more important than it is, we obsess about tone and being note perfect etc.  The fact is that it's about entertainment first and vocals a close second, the rest is some way behind.

It's also important to consider the role you are playing as a band.  Those 'pro sound but boring as hell' guys are fulfilling the role required of them.  They are not the main event, the wedding / corporate function etc is.  Yes, they could have used a DJ but they could also serve Prosecco rather than Champaign - it's about show.

Tex Mexico

Musicwolf said:

I would agree that, whilst improvement is necessary across the board in order to get beyond the pub level, the vocals are;

a) the weakest link

b) the most important thing

As guitarists we believe that the music is more important than it is, we obsess about tone and being note perfect etc.  The fact is that it's about entertainment first and vocals a close second, the rest is some way behind.

It's also important to consider the role you are playing as a band.  Those 'pro sound but boring as hell' guys are fulfilling the role required of them.  They are not the main event, the wedding / corporate function etc is.  Yes, they could have used a DJ but they could also serve Prosecco rather than Champaign - it's about show.

This is all true. The vocals are still the thing that everyone will focus on, to he extent that the instrumental performance need only be adequate to support it.

It's when the instrumental performance is so inadequate that it's distracting you have a problem. Nobody expects Grammy performances from a covers band, but anything less than "solid" is going to detract. Especially for vocals, but it does apply to the rest of the band.

EricTheWeary

I listened to a bit of the demo. It's an early demo so I wouldn't want to read too much into it. It's also bereft of the performance, bands can have a lot of presence and energy in the room that isn't captured on audio but is a large part of why people enjoy them.
Having said that yeh it's not a top vocal performance and the drummer does let you down as well. From what we've got not hard to imagine this as a fun pub band, wouldn't make the leap to something better paid/ more prestigious and adding a better vocalist is the obvious way to up the ante. 
Decent keys players are hard to find ( especially those who understand how to play in a band rather than taking their home versions into the arrangements) so I suspect you'd find another gig without any issue if this band isn't worth pursuing. 

Danny1969

I've been in semi pro and pro covers bands for 30 years, in general I've been lucky and been surrounded by some great musos. I've watched a lot of other bands, seen some great ones, seen some so bad I can't believe they are actually gig'ing. 
Here's some general thoughts

One of the most important things as a band is to play together. You can get a situation where everyone is actually generally competent but everyone is playing their own little show, not locking in and complementing each other. Not playing as a band unit basically. 
Unfortunately it all starts with the drummer. You have to have this solid foundation unpinning everything, the tempo needs to be rock solid and the hits consistent and then the bass player can lock in and groove and that's actually the sound of a band ... the drums and bass.
When the drummers not very good then no one is gonna sound good because no one will be playing in time. Now you don't need Neil Peart mega complex fills in a covers band but you absolutely have to have a good solid drummer who keeps time well and hits consistently

Vocal wise you gotta pick your battles .... there's not many non pro singers with a large range capable of singing everything suggested by everyone in the band. You have to know your range and don't attempt anything that needs 100% of your vocal ability as some nights you might only have 90% to give due to illness, being tired, poor monitoring etc. 

You have to get gigging regularly to get really tight but some things have to be sorted out first otherwise they get overlooked and treated as the "norm"  ..... as in shit timing poor vocal tuning etc. 

 

ICBM

You need a female singer.

Not being sexist about it - but it will make all the difference. Firstly it will make the band far more versatile, especially if the bassist still does lead vocals on songs that don't work with a female singer, secondly it will be less of a perceived threat to him, and thirdly bands with female singers are just more attractive to audiences, especially outside the harder rock format.

From experience, and contrary to popular myth, female singers are also usually less ego-driven and problematic than male ones. (Though it has to be said not all!)

p90fool

ICBM said:

You need a female singer.

Not being sexist about it - but it will make all the difference. Firstly it will make the band far more versatile, especially if the bassist still does lead vocals on songs that don't work with a female singer, secondly it will be less of a perceived threat to him, and thirdly bands with female singers are just more attractive to audiences, especially outside the harder rock format.

From experience, and contrary to popular myth, female singers are also usually less ego-driven and problematic than male ones. (Though it has to be said not all!)

This. 

I have tick boxes when I'm looking for singers, and although  gender isn't one of them I mostly end up with female singers because they mostly tick all the other boxes. 

Currently our lead singer and both of our deps are female. 

paulmapp8306

A female singer isnt going to happen.  Guitarist diesnt want one of those either, they've been let down 3 times by girls.

Would also mean starting pretty much from scratch  and most songs we want to tackle are male led.  Not all but most.

No point in playing anywhere if your not enjoying the songs.

paulmapp8306

Im surprised the drummer was picked as a week point.  Hes by far the most experienced of us, and played at a lot higher level as well.  He plays in two other bands atr present.  A Soul Band that plays clubs/functions Nationwide, and also in the countries Premier Kinks Tribute band with a regular outings at the Cavern as well as other top tribute venues. 

fastonebaz

I think many of the comments,  whilst I might agree with them,  stem from the recordings coming from a practice room where there usually isn't any energy or adrenalin and chances are none of them ever thought anyone would be hearing them so didn't go the extra mile.  I bet when there's an audience everyone will put more into it and thre effect will be transformative.  

ICBM

In that case I suggest that you and the drummer look for a new band... sometimes things just don't work, and this sounds like one of them.

Tex Mexico

paulmapp8306 said:

Im surprised the drummer was picked as a week point.  Hes by far the most experienced of us, and played at a lot higher level as well.  He plays in two other bands atr present.  A Soul Band that plays clubs/functions Nationwide, and also in the countries Premier Kinks Tribute band with a regular outings at the Cavern as well as other top tribute venues. 

I can only base my judgement on the recordings. They did not represent a drummer having an off day or phoning it in. I'd wager my house this guy doesn't turn into John Bonham once he's had his Ready Brek. He sounds like he's playing the same thing in every song.

Experience doesn't equate to skill or talent. I've seen dozens of people who play at supposedly top levels whose actual ability leaves a lot to be desired. N.B. The Kinks is not an especially high bar for instrumental competence.

If your only criteria for a drummer is that he supplies some kind of a beat to play over, then I guess he ticks the box. Otherwise I don't know what to tell you.

paulmapp8306

Big question then guys, and dont hold back.

How do my keys skills stack up here?  again timing and the odd bum note at this point, but overall.  What level I am I really at?

Im quite under confident really.  Ive played bass originally at 14, then guitar from 19 - which is now 33 years.  Ive also run desks for about 25 years as well.  Ive been playing keys for 2 years....and this is my first foray where ive felt I can start gigging on the ivory's.

paulmapp8306

Tex Mexico said:

paulmapp8306 said:

Im surprised the drummer was picked as a week point.  Hes by far the most experienced of us, and played at a lot higher level as well.  He plays in two other bands atr present.  A Soul Band that plays clubs/functions Nationwide, and also in the countries Premier Kinks Tribute band with a regular outings at the Cavern as well as other top tribute venues. 

I can only base my judgement on the recordings. They did not represent a drummer having an off day or phoning it in. I'd wager my house this guy doesn't turn into John Bonham once he's had his Ready Brek. He sounds like he's playing the same thing in every song.

Experience doesn't equate to skill or talent. I've seen dozens of people who play at supposedly top levels whose actual ability leaves a lot to be desired. N.B. The Kinks is not an especially high bar for instrumental competence.

If your only criteria for a drummer is that he supplies some kind of a beat to play over, then I guess he ticks the box. Otherwise I don't know what to tell you.

Fair enough.  Ill listen more closely to what hes playing next rehearsal.

Funkfingers

I just listened to the SoundCloud rehearsal recordings. I lasted two vocal lines of each song. It was as much as I could manage not to make the Vic Reeves' Club Singer arm movements in time with the backing music.

Your bassist would make an acceptable relief vocalist while the "proper" one nips off stage for a costume change or a crafty ciggy. 

If the bassist's principal motivation is money then, surely, 20% of a big fee trumps 25% of a titchy one. Also, if your band gets work through an agency, I am surprised that the agent has not met with you to discuss finding a serious singer.

paulmapp8306

Maybe hell raise it. 

horse

paulmapp8306 said:

Big question then guys, and dont hold back.

How do my keys skills stack up here?  again timing and the odd bum note at this point, but overall.  What level I am I really at?

Im quite under confident really.  Ive played bass originally at 14, then guitar from 19 - which is now 33 years.  Ive also run desks for about 25 years as well.  Ive been playing keys for 2 years....and this is my first foray where ive felt I can start gigging on the ivory's.

 I think you sound the best prepped out of the whole band there Paul. Your patches sound great, you can play the parts, and have obviously listened closely to the detail / been ambitious in trying to cover all the keys parts.

Id agree that the drums and guitar aren't much ahead of the vocals in quality, and you might struggle to get further than pub level with them given the competition that's out there.

I think if I were in your position I'd carry on to see what happens if you enjoy it, whilst keeping an eye open for what other opportunities come up elsewhere.

PolarityMan

I kinda think the problem is the singer isn't committing to the songs. It sounds very much like he's an instrumentalist going through the motions. In my opinion a worse singer giving a more energetic performance would even be preferable.Nothing has any semblence of emotion in it, jsut sounds like he's mumbling int he back of his throat so that there is something filling the vocal space and he's jsut about good anough at staying in pitch to get away with it. 

paulmapp8306

That may be part of the rehearsal not live thing mind.

And I am actually really enjoying it at this point, apart from the frustrations the others arnt "finessing" the sounds and parts like Im trying top.  Its my era - and I Love almost every song we play.

I really enjoyed working out the sounds, and the parts - working how to try to play little bits as well as the main parts without messing the main parts.

This is something i recorded, learning a song they wanted to play, that I adore, only to find they couldnt do their bits (at least not yet).  

Again a couple of errors - but this was a sunday night, and I started working out the sounds Fir night, then the parts sat.  Keys are all me, backing is minus the key parts from the interweb.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXhUrUZT1ho

Modellista

Funkfingers said:

I just listened to the SoundCloud rehearsal recordings. I lasted two vocal lines of each song. It was as much as I could manage not to make the Vic Reeves' Club Singer arm movements in time with the backing music.

Your bassist would make an acceptable relief vocalist while the "proper" one nips off stage for a costume change or a crafty ciggy. 

If the bassist's principal motivation is money then, surely, 20% of a big fee trumps 25% of a titchy one. Also, if your band gets work through an agency, I am surprised that the agent has not met with you to discuss finding a serious singer.

Got to agree with this, I'm afraid.  Singing isn't easy, there's nowhere to hide.  It really is as if he's covering Vic Reeves with the most cheesy cod-American accent and trite, wooden delivery.  Some of the high notes he simply can't reach, which is really uncomfortable for an audience.  The tone is gravelly but somehow breathless and weak at the same time.  He's got that out-of-tune tail to loads of the notes which comes across as a lazy delivery.  Singing can be learned, but the guy needs to accept his vocal faults and work on them immediately.  I can't see audiences warming to him as it stands, in fact I would leave the pub rather than listen to him.  How's his "crowd appeal" - is he witty and engaging between songs?  I think you were right to identify this as a potential problem.

The guitarist is clearly a beginner as well, but audiences don't notice that so much.  

You seem to have a lot emotionally invested in this, but personally I've got a lot shorter patience with bands these days.  There's loads out there, what's the point in investing loads of time when the fundamental ingredients are weak?

Mark1960

IMHO the most important part of any band both musicall and visually is the frontman/vocalist. If you get that right you can build the band around them. If it's not right, it dosn't matter how good the rest of you are, you will always be only as good as the vocalist. 90% of pundits only really hear the vocals most of the time.