How to deal with a band member for the benefit of the band?

slacker

The female singer would be a good addition and let the other two do bvs. Pick some songs where there are some prominent bvs there's a Blondie one where the blokes sing a bit for example. 

The drummer is a weak point. 

I saw a covers band where the drummer was like that. During the interval the sound guy played one nation under a groove. I think he was extracting the urine. 

midiman1962

Tex Mexico said:

paulmapp8306 said:

I love the music, Im enjoying playing the songs - which is why I want to stick with it if I can make it work.

Musically doing things wrong (either bass lines, guitar parts, harmonies) when theres no reason not to do them right (ie you can actually play the lines but just havent learned it properly) along with better vocalists being available but some band member not acknowledging we need them - that frustrates me.


 

I'm gonna weigh in here once more and then I'll shut up, but where I was quite specific before, here I'm just gonna make some general comments about This Sort of Thing and you can take from it what you like.

You're 100% correct to be frustrated by people who do things wrong when there's no reason not to do them right. I've led maybe a half-dozen bands in the past twenty years, and the number one reason I've fired people was not ego clashes or being a drunk or hitting on my girlfriend, it's half-arsing stuff. I flatly refuse to put my time into associating with musicians who aren't prepared to put in as much work as I am.

Over time I've become less and less tolerant of it as well, because the one thing I know for sure is that you can't make someone care - and caring at this stage of the game is literally the only reason someone will put the effort in. If someone's a bad musician when they could be a good musician, the only conclusion is that being a musician just isn't all that important to them.

I've been in rooms with people who had the potential to be world-class musos and yet couldn't be bothered to learn two songs a month. I've been in bands with people whose natural talent would turn most people green with envy but who couldn't be arsed to practice three hours one night a week. So I'm a little more forgiving of people who were never destined for greatness, but that doesn't mean it's okay for them to fart our a quarter-arsed set and expect that people should even watch, let alone pay for it.

So I'll say it again, my advice to you is that being in a band with people who aren't interested in making the band as good as it can possibly be, whether that's because they won't put in the basic graft or it's because they refuse to hire someone better to do the things they're failing at, is a colossal waste of your time.

I'll wrap up with a bit of Confucian wisdom, which goes something like "if you're the smartest guy in the room, you're in the wrong room". The people you play with should have something good to teach you, either directly or just by inspiring you to be as good as them. Your bandmates should make you feel lucky to be included, not cause you to go vent on a messageboard. Think carefully about how much person effort you're prepared to put into trying to drag these guys merely up to your level, and whether your time might not be better spent around guys who make you work hard to be good enough.

Anyway, best of luck with everything.

@Tex Mexico you've nailed it to the floor mate

slacker

midiman1962 said:

Tex Mexico said:

paulmapp8306 said:

I love the music, Im enjoying playing the songs - which is why I want to stick with it if I can make it work.

Musically doing things wrong (either bass lines, guitar parts, harmonies) when theres no reason not to do them right (ie you can actually play the lines but just havent learned it properly) along with better vocalists being available but some band member not acknowledging we need them - that frustrates me.


 

I'm gonna weigh in here once more and then I'll shut up, but where I was quite specific before, here I'm just gonna make some general comments about This Sort of Thing and you can take from it what you like.

You're 100% correct to be frustrated by people who do things wrong when there's no reason not to do them right. I've led maybe a half-dozen bands in the past twenty years, and the number one reason I've fired people was not ego clashes or being a drunk or hitting on my girlfriend, it's half-arsing stuff. I flatly refuse to put my time into associating with musicians who aren't prepared to put in as much work as I am.

Over time I've become less and less tolerant of it as well, because the one thing I know for sure is that you can't make someone care - and caring at this stage of the game is literally the only reason someone will put the effort in. If someone's a bad musician when they could be a good musician, the only conclusion is that being a musician just isn't all that important to them.

I've been in rooms with people who had the potential to be world-class musos and yet couldn't be bothered to learn two songs a month. I've been in bands with people whose natural talent would turn most people green with envy but who couldn't be arsed to practice three hours one night a week. So I'm a little more forgiving of people who were never destined for greatness, but that doesn't mean it's okay for them to fart our a quarter-arsed set and expect that people should even watch, let alone pay for it.

So I'll say it again, my advice to you is that being in a band with people who aren't interested in making the band as good as it can possibly be, whether that's because they won't put in the basic graft or it's because they refuse to hire someone better to do the things they're failing at, is a colossal waste of your time.

I'll wrap up with a bit of Confucian wisdom, which goes something like "if you're the smartest guy in the room, you're in the wrong room". The people you play with should have something good to teach you, either directly or just by inspiring you to be as good as them. Your bandmates should make you feel lucky to be included, not cause you to go vent on a messageboard. Think carefully about how much person effort you're prepared to put into trying to drag these guys merely up to your level, and whether your time might not be better spent around guys who make you work hard to be good enough.

Anyway, best of luck with everything.

@Tex Mexico you've nailed it to the floor mate

I posted last night on a phone and have re-read the thread. Some pointers and I've quoted the above thread as it nails a lot. 

IMHO here are the problems with this band and they are all solvable but present other problems.

Singer-the male voice is ok IF you are doing parties and low key pub gigs with an invited audience ie your family. It's not going to cut it for a semi pro covers band at a wedding etc. My mate ran an events band in the early 2000s and charged a grand a gig.. Getting another vovalist could cause a problem with the bassist, so the solution risks needing a bassist (who is ok not great) and more importantly a PA. Then there's another problem with another vocalist. I'm pretty sure a new vocalist will choose or want to choose the songs. 

Drummer-the drummer has no groove which again isnt a problem for the above low expectations gig. However 1k a night? I saw a covers band just over a year ago and the guitar and bassist were average at best. The singer had attitude, sang in tune, wore a sparkly mini-dress and most of the songs were by a female vocalist. She did justice to Tina Turner songs. However the drummer was the secret weapon. Absolutely effortless, technique, feel, push pulled tempo and didnt over play. 

Leader-there isnt one. Nobody can make the hard decisions. 

If you set your sights lower, dont rush things and everyone works hard, you could could be a half decent pub band. My advice would be to line up your female vocalist for a future project, get a decent bass player and drummer and look for a guitarist whilst rehearsing. 

I'll sum up by explaining what I have done in my start up. It's my band. I picked the musicians, I sing lead vocals, I pick the songs. I make the decisions. However I make them by asking for advice. The drummer is seriously good, a family friend and wanted to play after a break of 10 years. He has input on where we play (we used to rehearse at my house with a plastic roland kit). We now play in a proper studio. My guitarist can play anything and has no ego. He's happy to play chords, do the heavy lifting etc. However I pick songs that allow him to stretch out in terms of soloing. The bass player is competent but unflappable works well with the drummer and most important my vocal coach. 

Me-I'm the weak link, I'm the worst at any given discipline but pick son keys s that work well with my voice, take advice from my vocal coach, and keep away from any material where the original was done by a decent singer. We do a lot of punk/new wave shouty stuff, the bassist helps on BV's (which means taking leads vocals on high bits) And we like playing together and have played once a month for two years without a gig. We are not rushing it. We will probably play a short set in my back garden this summer. Maybe a church fete. We will never to corporate or weddings I.m not good enough. 

paulmapp8306

I think I need to find something else..... I really want to play the stuff this band plays though and thats not easy to find really, and the few decent bands I have seen do this stuff use a backing track for keys and play to a click (apparently one more person to pay in the band is one too many).

The problem this band has, TBH seems to be the bassist wants to lead (its his PA, his original project) BUT he has no clue of his own standard, nor of the rest of us.  He thinks he knows best because hes gigged for over 30 years (as I tried saying, doesnt mean you've been doing it right for 30 years).  As has been mentioned, stick to pub gigs (which Im happy with) and it will do OK once its broken in live, and the playing becomes more automatic - BUT hes adamant hes fed up of pubs and wants to move to clubs without being able to see where his own (and the bands) deficiencies and areas of improvement that are needed.....  I think with a decent vocalist and the bassist relegated to BVs, (which also frees the guitarist up to work on his playing more - he is better than those recordings suggest buts hes either singing lead or BVs and his guitar work is suffering a lot because of it), then we could be a decent pub band and possibly make the step up to clubs (not functions, I think thats too much - working mens clubs are the market at circa £400-£500 a night round me, and there are a few to go at - against the £200-£250 for pubs).  That does need the vocalist as a minimum, but also the bassist to take a long look in the mirror - and take advice from people with less "years" behind them but experience at the higher levels.  A vocalist alone wont cut it - it needs an attitude change and that reality check.

Im going to look for another project I can get passionate about though I think (though might keep this going too for the material).  I got more out or learning the songs and designing the sounds at present than I am with the frustrations of trying to make the bassist be realistic and the band to do the homework to do things right.  If you dont control the controllable's its never going to work.

I think the good thing to come out of this, is Im much more aware of where I sit ability wise (on keys that is).  I know Im better on guitar - but keys has given me a new lease of life.  I was getting stuck in a rut as a guitarist - and they/we are 10 a penny, so its hard to find a band.   Im much more confident in what I can do keys wise (Im no pianist, not boogie woogie player, but rock/pop I think Im OK).





 

Tex Mexico

paulmapp8306 said:

I was getting stuck in a rut as a guitarist - and they/we are 10 a penny, so its hard to find a band.

 

You say that, but it's in fact shit or mediocre guitarists who are ten a penny. In my experience I've found it just as hard to find guitarists as I have to find anyone else, and there's a lot more chaff to sort through. Good musicians are rare, period.

Don't stick to keys just because it makes you more "employable" (as you've said yourself, that's not necessarily true). If you're a good guitarist, may I ask what's stopping you from doing both? I look for musicians all the time and I'd consider you a better candidate if you did double-duty.

Danny1969

I would suggest maybe look to get yourself into an established band as a Guitar and Keys player, as @Tex Mexico 
 said someone who does both is a big asset ..... I play guitar and keys myself and have no problem getting great gigs.

I think you have more problems than the bass player's vocals to be honest, If you want a push up the pyramid then you need a better drummer and  better guitarist as well. People always say oh it's just about the lead vocals ... that's all that counts but that really isn't true. To be a great function band that earns good money everybody needs to be top notch because weaker players get found out. As I said earlier, a great singer can't even sing in time if the drummer doesn't play in time, you have to build a band from the bottom up with solid foundations. 

So my advice would be look around, join an eighties tribute band (I used to be in one called Kick Up The Eighties) Don't bother trying to build from scratch. It's a pity your not in the South as there's a lot of call for decent keys players down here and the gigs pay a lot better too

paulmapp8306

Tex Mexico said:

paulmapp8306 said:

I was getting stuck in a rut as a guitarist - and they/we are 10 a penny, so its hard to find a band.

 

You say that, but it's in fact shit or mediocre guitarists who are ten a penny. In my experience I've found it just as hard to find guitarists as I have to find anyone else, and there's a lot more chaff to sort through. Good musicians are rare, period.

Don't stick to keys just because it makes you more "employable" (as you've said yourself, that's not necessarily true). If you're a good guitarist, may I ask what's stopping you from doing both? I look for musicians all the time and I'd consider you a better candidate if you did double-duty.

Because I havent got the car room or the will to carry 2 keyboards, 3 modules, the stand, the seat (I play seated normally) and PA backline (for keys - either fully backline or monitoring if FOH)) and THEN a couple of guitars, my AFX2 rig, my 2x12 cab and floorboard along with all the power cables, signal cables, footpedals (for keys) and backups.  I can just about get my keys rig in as it is - or my guitar rig (though that a little less bulky as there no stand 3 tier stand to carry around).

If I had the transport that would cart it - didnt have to lug it all up and down stairs at home (as my music room is a back bedroom) and the band was a worthwhile project, I might.


I have done double duty before, but that was with a single keyboard (61 note synth action and a light single tier X stand, rather than my current 76 note synth, 88 weighted piano, synth modules and heavy duty 3 tier stand) just used for 3 or 4 songs.  Evan that was a PITA, a full blown keys rig as well as the guitar one......

John_A

Have to say I agree with most of what's been said, most of the band aren't up to decent pub band standards IMO.  You mention working men's clubs, you should check out some of the bands that play there, the standard is very high indeed.  There are decent bands out there, go and find one

robinbowes

paulmapp8306 said:

Because I havent got the car room or the will to carry 2 keyboards, 3 modules, the stand, the seat (I play seated normally) and PA backline (for keys - either fully backline or monitoring if FOH)) and THEN a couple of guitars, my AFX2 rig, my 2x12 cab and floorboard along with all the power cables, signal cables, footpedals (for keys) and backups.  I can just about get my keys rig in as it is - or my guitar rig (though that a little less bulky as there no stand 3 tier stand to carry around)

Heh, no dedication

I play guitar and provide the PA for my 8-piece band - 4k HK Audio FoH + monitors, 4 x stereo IEM. We often have an engineer but I also sometimes mix from stage while playing (I say "mix" - we balance levels at the start and I occasionally turn things up if requested!).

I must admit, it can be quite tiring.

R.

paulmapp8306

It's less the work, its lugging it all back upstairs after,  mostly though its physically not having room on the car.

John_A

paulmapp8306 said:

It's less the work, its lugging it all back upstairs after,  mostly though its physically not having room on the car.

Bigger car/ smaller rig?

Danny1969

All the actual semi pro  \ pro bands I work with don't really use cars for gigs. It's less hassle just to buy a van and leave everything in it, taking only guitars indoors normally due to the weather. When you average out the cost of running a band van it works out about £100 a month in insurance, tax and  MOT but if you get a splitter you save on fuel so it reality it's less. Over a 5 piece band with 5 gigs a month that's like £5 a gig each. 
It's generally a bit of a laugh all piling in the same van for a gig too and having a beer. 
 

paulmapp8306

John_A said:

paulmapp8306 said:

It's less the work, its lugging it all back upstairs after,  mostly though its physically not having room on the car.

Bigger car/ smaller rig?

Already have a VW Passat estate......  

Would need a slimmed down keys rig, meaning either piano or synth/organ based primarily (though you can play both on weighted or weighted at a push).  Its a compromise that could work in the right band though i guess.

paulmapp8306

Danny1969 said:

All the actual semi pro  \ pro bands I work with don't really use cars for gigs. It's less hassle just to buy a van and leave everything in it, taking only guitars indoors normally due to the weather. When you average out the cost of running a band van it works out about £100 a month in insurance, tax and  MOT but if you get a splitter you save on fuel so it reality it's less. Over a 5 piece band with 5 gigs a month that's like £5 a gig each. 
It's generally a bit of a laugh all piling in the same van for a gig too and having a beer. 
 

True, but were looking at 1 or 2 a month really as were all older, with other stuff going on.   That's a fair chunk out of what we'd get.

In a different band, with the work to support it, I'd be happy to chip in to a band van and play keys and guitar with my full rig.

Just got to find that band.

robinbowes

I use my Volvo XC90 - with all the seats down, it's huge, but I still can't quite get the full PA *and* my guitar gear in at the same time. I must get a van...

R.

Jalapeno

robinbowes said:

I use my Volvo XC90 - with all the seats down, it's huge, but I still can't quite get the full PA *and* my guitar gear in at the same time. I must get a van...

R.

I have a Hyundai SantFe - it's cavernous with the seats down, but have the same issue.  You can't load it to the celing as it'll take your head off at the first set of red traffic lights !

p90fool

Tbh, much as I like my gear, if I was doubling on keys and guitar in a covers band I'd strip it back to a single keyboard/module and a guitar modeller, both going into my own small PA/monitor system.

Danny1969

In the Kate Bush band I use a midi keyboard into a Macbook Pro running Protools and VI's ....... It's very easy to set up mapping keys so on one patch I can have 4 different sounds all mapped to different key ranges ... so I can play the different parts with different sounds  without switching patches. The keyboard is big it's self though because I like the octave  range for piano and it's weighted plus hard cased. Never used a keyboard amp, main outs always straight into PA and then headhone outs into my mixer then IEM's ...... so even if the sound engineer accidentally mutes my aux sends I can still hear myself independently of what they are doing. 

trolley

I used to have a Kia Sedona - took the seats out and got my flight-cased amp, 2 x12" cab,3 guitars and a bag of leads, stands etc,  a PA and the drum kit in. Can't say I miss it mind, but useful.

paulmapp8306

p90fool said:

Tbh, much as I like my gear, if I was doubling on keys and guitar in a covers band I'd strip it back to a single keyboard/module and a guitar modeller, both going into my own small PA/monitor system.

I run an AFX2, but tend to go power amp and cab - because I much prefer the sound BUT I could go direct FRFR and use the same PA cab as the keys (Yamaha DSR12).  I could probably cover moist stuff on my FA07 keyboard as well.  Pianos are better on the RD and that has a weighted board.  Organs are much better via my legend module, and I have a proper synth in the Peak that does a lot of stuff better than the FA - BUT the FA could probably do 95% of the stuff well enough and cover the other 5% to some degree, so I could get away with that.  If I stand rather than sit (that I do for piano pedals), I could narrow it it:

1 lightweight X stand
Roland FA076 (which is a lot lighter than the RD)
4U rack with AFX, Wireless and Midi controller (for the AFX live)
Floor board (for AFX control)
1 Guitar stand, and 2 guitars (1 as backup).
Mic and Mic stand (yes I sing as well, but not when I play keys)

Couple of bags/boxs with power and cabling plus backups.   that would fit.