Demonstrations in Peckham today -Black Lives Matter

Dominic

Yes strange , as if the little New Zealand Government have any responsibility or Jurisdiction over America
I'm angry at my Neighbour so I'm going to bash up my Auntie / scratch my Dad's car 
strange

Rich210

We're seeing the emergence of an American dictatorship, racism in the UK is also rife. Absolutely there's cause for protest. 

capo4th

WiresDreamDisasters said:

https://twitter.com/i/status/1266245256682430465

Sums it up really they don’t care who they hurt or rob it’s just self gratification. George Floyd is now far removed from their thought process. I just watched a blogger who filmed the destruction of LA and Beverley Hills. We were there two years ago. Very sad. All they wanted was a Gucci bag with matching baseball cap.

Dominic

Rich210 said:

We're seeing the emergence of an American dictatorship, racism in the UK is also rife. Absolutely there's cause for protest. 

I have no view on American Dictatorship other than the fact that it's always been more of a Dictatorship than the Land of the Free Mission Statement would belie.
 I don't believe that Racism is "Rife" in the UK . Of course ,there are Racists in the UK and Tribalism is a Human Science tenet and always will be in any Society . However I would go so far as to say that Britain is one of the most integrated and Tolerant Societies in the World alongside Brazil and Holland .
 If you look at Society as a whole I don't think you will see "rife" racism. The odd Racist maybe .
Younger generations don't even notice colour / sexuality as it has been very sanitised and they have evolved through integration and education to a completely different mindset .
There is a huge amount of mixed race marriage /partnership ,nobody looks twice at mixed couples .
Things have changed massively in 50 years ....Enoch Powell would be very surprised to see that half the Close Cabinet are Indian origin .I'm quite old and can remember seeing Houses with TO LET signs in the window of London Suburbs like Wood Green with NO JEWS  NO BLACKS  NO IRISH proudly and unabashedly written beneath in bold letters .

Karlos

WiresDreamDisasters said:

Karlos said:

Dominic said:

 I just don't follow the logic or appropriateness of inflicting that anger on the streets of London ,Police or Business' 

As with many issues, it seems the only way to get some folk to listen is to hit them in the wallet.

I'm not condoning it but it's like that meme that's been doing the rounds says; people tried taking a knee and that was ignored.

Matt is gonna love that I posted this! But I'd curious on your take.
https://quillette.com/2020/05/30/americas-black-communities-are-suffering-violent-protests-will-make-the-suffering-worse/

Good article and it raises some issues that you wouldn't consider on the face of it.

The notion that insurrection is 'sticking it to the man' is rarely born out in these circumstances. 
The rioting isn't in Beverley Hills, it's in poorer communities that can ill afford the destruction to infrastructure or to community harmony. Smashing a McDonalds up achieves nothing other than to put the locals that work there out of a job which is an own goal. Smashing the small grocers shop up likely destroys a local families business and their lives which is as much of an own goal as you can get. It's totally understandable though - in the heat of the moment, when there seems to be little chance of recourse, people seem to want to smash things up... I mean, a cop killed a man in broad daylight, it would seem perfectly plausible that as a reaction to throw a brick... maybe.

I wasn't aware of the context of MLK's “language of the unheard” speech that is often quote. That's really interesting. I read MLK's nephew (I think it was a nephew) misquoting that speech.

I don't agree with that taking a knee achieves nothing. It's achieved a lot and is an incredibly powerful image of peaceful dissent. But what are people to do when it 'appears' to achieve nothing? I can wholly understand these riots and the idea that - if you have nothing - you've got nothing to lose but unfortunately that is patently untrue. The same people will be losing even more rights and more freedoms with Trump in power.

The idea that historically, riots have pushed whites towards the Republicans is very interesting. Protect what we've got, build a fence around 'us', keep those that aren't 'us', down. 

It's also like the 'wartime president effect' when people rally around a tough leader.
There's nothing new about Trump, he's just more blatant in his desire to divide and conquer and these riots may just prove to galvanise Trump's base.

capo4th

I think you @Karlos ;;need to research what’s been going on in LA and Beverley Hills. 

Loads of shops and cars smashed up and plenty of violence. They wanted a free Gucci bag and some new sunglasses.

WiresDreamDisasters

Karlos said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:

Karlos said:

Dominic said:

 I just don't follow the logic or appropriateness of inflicting that anger on the streets of London ,Police or Business' 

As with many issues, it seems the only way to get some folk to listen is to hit them in the wallet.

I'm not condoning it but it's like that meme that's been doing the rounds says; people tried taking a knee and that was ignored.

Matt is gonna love that I posted this! But I'd curious on your take.
https://quillette.com/2020/05/30/americas-black-communities-are-suffering-violent-protests-will-make-the-suffering-worse/

Good article and it raises some issues that you wouldn't consider on the face of it.

The notion that insurrection is 'sticking it to the man' is rarely born out in these circumstances. 
The rioting isn't in Beverley Hills, it's in poorer communities that can ill afford the destruction to infrastructure or to community harmony. Smashing a McDonalds up achieves nothing other than to put the locals that work there out of a job which is an own goal. Smashing the small grocers shop up likely destroys a local families business and their lives which is as much of an own goal as you can get. It's totally understandable though - in the heat of the moment, when there seems to be little chance of recourse, people seem to want to smash things up... I mean, a cop killed a man in broad daylight, it would seem perfectly plausible that as a reaction to throw a brick... maybe.

I wasn't aware of the context of MLK's “language of the unheard” speech that is often quote. That's really interesting. I read MLK's nephew (I think it was a nephew) misquoting that speech.

I don't agree with that taking a knee achieves nothing. It's achieved a lot and is an incredibly powerful image of peaceful dissent. But what are people to do when it 'appears' to achieve nothing? I can wholly understand these riots and the idea that - if you have nothing - you've got nothing to lose but unfortunately that is patently untrue. The same people will be losing even more rights and more freedoms with Trump in power.

The idea that historically, riots have pushed whites towards the Republicans is very interesting. Protect what we've got, build a fence around 'us', keep those that aren't 'us', down. 

It's also like the 'wartime president effect' when people rally around a tough leader.
There's nothing new about Trump, he's just more blatant in his desire to divide and conquer and these riots may just prove to galvanise Trump's base.

Thanks for reading it and not just calling me names.

crunchman

Dominic said:

Rich210 said:

We're seeing the emergence of an American dictatorship, racism in the UK is also rife. Absolutely there's cause for protest. 

I have no view on American Dictatorship other than the fact that it's always been more of a Dictatorship than the Land of the Free Mission Statement would belie.
 I don't believe that Racism is "Rife" in the UK . Of course ,there are Racists in the UK and Tribalism is a Human Science tenet and always will be in any Society . However I would go so far as to say that Britain is one of the most integrated and Tolerant Societies in the World alongside Brazil and Holland .
 If you look at Society as a whole I don't think you will see "rife" racism. The odd Racist maybe .
Younger generations don't even notice colour / sexuality as it has been very sanitised and they have evolved through integration and education to a completely different mindset .
There is a huge amount of mixed race marriage /partnership ,nobody looks twice at mixed couples .
Things have changed massively in 50 years ....Enoch Powell would be very surprised to see that half the Close Cabinet are Indian origin .I'm quite old and can remember seeing Houses with TO LET signs in the window of London Suburbs like Wood Green with NO JEWS  NO BLACKS  NO IRISH proudly and unabashedly written beneath in bold letters .

The US is worse than here, and more divided, but let's not pretend everything is perfect here.

My wife's younger sister married a black guy, and they have a young son.  When she is out with him, she gets some very dirty looks.  She was really shocked by how bad it is. She used to take our blonde white girls out when they were younger - never got anything like that.  Black people are still on the receiving end of things like that, and it affects the way they see the world.

The problem is that some black people see the way they are treated and react against it.  It creates an us and them mentality.  Some of them have a grudge against white people.  My wife's sister has been left out of party invites among her husband's black friends.  Black partners of other people were invited, but she was not.  The origin of their attitude is understandable given they way black people have been (and still are) treated, but it doesn't help.

At the same time, my wife's other sister is in the police, along with her fiance.  From some of the stories they tell about the way people abuse them, it's understandable why the police can develop an attitude as well.

When people develop those attitudes, on both sides, it then entrenches the problems and exacerbates them.

I've been reluctant to post in these threads as it's difficult to explain in a few words without coming across badly.  It's a very complex subject, and there are no easy solutions.

capo4th

Racism unfortunately goes both ways. 

Karlos

capo4th said:

I think you @Karlos ;;need to research what’s been going on in LA and Beverley Hills. 

Loads of shops and cars smashed up and plenty of violence. They wanted a free Gucci bag and some new sunglasses.

Yeah I just saw the Beverley Hills footage.

I think I should have been more clear and picked a better area as an example. What I meant was, the riots didn't start in wealthy suburbs - they never do because it's not wealthy people getting the necks stamped on. The riots may spill over but it's not those folk living in the wealthy areas that will suffer in the long run.

LA is a big conurbation and you've got the richest and poorest living close by. I chose a bad example, maybe I should have said The Hamptons.

octatonic

capo4th said:

Racism unfortunately goes both ways. 

This is, frankly, an ugly sentiment.
When was the last time you had your "whiteness" used as a reason to be stopped by the authorities, questioned, harassed and maybe roughed up a little?

I am betting on 'never'.

TTony

octatonic said:

capo4th said:

Racism unfortunately goes both ways. 

This is, frankly, an ugly sentiment.
When was the last time you had your "whiteness" used as a reason to be stopped by the authorities, questioned, harassed and maybe roughed up a little?

That’s not the only form that racism takes.

octatonic

TTony said:

octatonic said:

capo4th said:

Racism unfortunately goes both ways. 

This is, frankly, an ugly sentiment.
When was the last time you had your "whiteness" used as a reason to be stopped by the authorities, questioned, harassed and maybe roughed up a little?

That’s not the only form that racism takes.

I accept that.
The issue in the US is racism + power, over many generations.
Of course I am against racism in all its forms.
What is happening in the states is systemic.

Dominic

Somebody famous (can't remember who ) said  "America is more Racist than South Africa ever was "

TTony

octatonic said:

The issue in the US is racism + power, over many generations.

Completely agree.

There was a Twitter video, reposted here in another thread before "this" all kicked off, of a youngish white woman in a NY park (IIRC) calling the police because an "African American" (her words) was videoing her allowing her dog to break the park rules.

He wasn't threatening her in any way, just videoing her breaking the law.

She called the police.

That - to my mind - exhibits the endemic racism in the US and shows how deep-rooted and automatic it is.  Sorting that out will be a lot more difficult than running a few awareness courses.

capo4th

octatonic said:

capo4th said:

Racism unfortunately goes both ways. 

This is, frankly, an ugly sentiment.
When was the last time you had your "whiteness" used as a reason to be stopped by the authorities, questioned, harassed and maybe roughed up a little?

I am betting on 'never'.

Maybe because I would be respectful towards the authorities and cooperate with what the police were requesting. They in turn, would also remain polite and not feel the need to use aggressive force.

Racism and racial prejudice unfortunately goes both ways. 

I have visited South Africa, America and the Caribbean many many times and have black friends in all three and the UK who would back up my point. A recent trip to Barbados in Feb staying with friends. There was a large mixture of black and white friends around a table supporting my point. They were also happy to discuss the racism issues they face on the tiny small island. White people certainly in the minority.

Look at what is going on in the USA in the last 7 days and tell me you have not observed racism and violence towards white Americans. 

Apologies on the “I have black friends” example but it’s a fact. 

quarky

octatonic said:

capo4th said:

Racism unfortunately goes both ways. 

This is, frankly, an ugly sentiment.
When was the last time you had your "whiteness" used as a reason to be stopped by the authorities, questioned, harassed and maybe roughed up a little?

I am betting on 'never'.

That is simplistic. If you have been stopped and searched on the underground as a white person, it could well be "making up the numbers", which *is* still predicated on your skin colour (search enough white people so the policy *looks* fairer).

Racism does go both ways without a doubt, but until you can honestly tell yourself that you would be perfectly fine being a different colour and your life would be no different, something needs to be done. But virtue signalling about it only going one way is part of the problem.

I think the problem isn't "black guy dies in custody", it should be the issue of lack of opportunities and fairness. Sorting out the the reasons for that though is going to be very tough (how much is skin colour, how much is background)?

Mark1960

Somebody once wrote something along the lines of "Evil things can happen when good men do nothing". Think it was in the context of WWII but may be wrong. I guess they just wanted to show solidarity and support for the cause, rather than doing nothing..... 

octatonic

quarky said:

octatonic said:

capo4th said:

Racism unfortunately goes both ways. 

This is, frankly, an ugly sentiment.
When was the last time you had your "whiteness" used as a reason to be stopped by the authorities, questioned, harassed and maybe roughed up a little?

I am betting on 'never'.

That is simplistic. If you have been stopped and searched on the underground as a white person, it could well be "making up the numbers", which *is* still predicated on your skin colour (search enough white people so the policy *looks* fairer).

Racism does go both ways without a doubt, but until you can honestly tell yourself that you would be perfectly fine being a different colour and your life would be no different, something needs to be done. But virtue signalling about it only going one way is part of the problem.

I think the problem isn't "black guy dies in custody", it should be the issue of lack of opportunities and fairness. Sorting out the the reasons for that though is going to be very tough (how much is skin colour, how much is background)?

Being dead does rather limit one's options.

But I take your point.
I've said in several other places in the thread something to the effect of it is the cumulative effect of hounding of black people (often men) by the Police- it isn't racism by itself, it is racism + power.
I saw it when I lived there, the evidence shows that they are disproportionately stopped by the Police.
Capo has tried to use a false equivalence argument stating that racism goes both ways. 

quarky

octatonic said:

Being dead does rather limit one's options.

But I take your point.
I've said in several other places in the thread something to the effect of it is the cumulative effect of hounding of black people (often men) by the Police- it isn]t racism by itself, it is racism + power.
I saw it when I lived there, the evidence shows that they are disproportionately stopped by the Police.
Capo has tried to use a false equivalence argument stating that racism goes both ways. 

Yeah. The problem is that so many poor people in the US are black. Or black people are poor. So how do you address the root of the issue in the fairest way? Special treatment for someone based on skin colour cannot be the fairest solution, but it could be the only solution at present if that means dragging black people out of the poorest end of the spectrum until there is a fairer distribution? Maybe discounted education? Maybe lower tax rates?  

Then perhaps, after maybe a generation, you will get a better idea of what is still racism, and what is just lack of opportunity offered by background. Probably significantly problems with both, but hopefully things keep moving (quickly) in the right direction.