Demonstrations in Peckham today -Black Lives Matter

capo4th

I think some people maybe living in a small delicate bubble.

quarky

I think we all do.

Moloch

TTony said:

octatonic said:

The issue in the US is racism + power, over many generations.

Completely agree.

There was a Twitter video, reposted here in another thread before "this" all kicked off, of a youngish white woman in a NY park (IIRC) calling the police because an "African American" (her words) was videoing her allowing her dog to break the park rules.

He wasn't threatening her in any way, just videoing her breaking the law.

She called the police.

That - to my mind - exhibits the endemic racism in the US and shows how deep-rooted and automatic it is.  Sorting that out will be a lot more difficult than running a few awareness courses.

She not only called the police, but she shrieked into the phone to make it seem as though she was at risk of being attacked. To my mind it was little better than an attempted assault/murder by proxy.

WiresDreamDisasters

https://twitter.com/i/status/1267670598127357952

capo4th

https://www.kwqc.com/content/news/New-details-released-in-Davenport-shootings-during-night-of-violence-570948331.html

Jota

https://twitter.com/JoyceWhiteVance/status/1267633407711948800

Karlos

octatonic said:

capo4th said:

Racism unfortunately goes both ways. 

This is, frankly, an ugly sentiment.
When was the last time you had your "whiteness" used as a reason to be stopped by the authorities, questioned, harassed and maybe roughed up a little?

I am betting on 'never'.

The only time my skin colour has ever been brought to attention is when I have to tick a box on a form. That's an incredibly privileged position. 

capo4th said:

Maybe because I would be respectful towards the authorities and cooperate with what the police were requesting. 

Mate, how do you know? You can't say that because you, your family and your race has not had its neck knelt on for 500 years.

The psychology of five centuries of racism towards black people can't be measured by those that have never suffered like they have and still do. It would be pretty gauche to think the guy that throws a brick at the police does so only because he's pissed off in the moment and that the history of racism has nothing to do with it. As a white guy I can't begin to imagine how it must seep into your very core through work, culture and the fabric of society. 

In general, a white persons appreciation of racism will only ever be superficial, at best.

MattBanshee

capo4th said:

octatonic said:

capo4th said:

Racism unfortunately goes both ways. 

This is, frankly, an ugly sentiment.
When was the last time you had your "whiteness" used as a reason to be stopped by the authorities, questioned, harassed and maybe roughed up a little?

I am betting on 'never'.

Maybe because I would be respectful towards the authorities and cooperate with what the police were requesting. They in turn, would also remain polite and not feel the need to use aggressive force.

Racism and racial prejudice unfortunately goes both ways. 

I have visited South Africa, America and the Caribbean many many times and have black friends in all three and the UK who would back up my point. A recent trip to Barbados in Feb staying with friends. There was a large mixture of black and white friends around a table supporting my point. They were also happy to discuss the racism issues they face on the tiny small island. White people certainly in the minority.

Look at what is going on in the USA in the last 7 days and tell me you have not observed racism and violence towards white Americans. 

Apologies on the “I have black friends” example but it’s a fact. 

Please go and read the stories of the black men and women (and children) who have been killed by police. Almost every single one was being respectful, peaceful and cooperative. Your assumption that the police would automatically be polite and pacifist towards you is a sign of your white privilege, because I can assure you that assumption is not shared, nor demonstrated, within the experiences of black people, both in the USA and here in the UK too.

TTony

quarky said:

Then perhaps, after maybe a generation, you will get a better idea of what is still racism, and what is just lack of opportunity offered by background. Probably significantly problems with both, but hopefully things keep moving (quickly) in the right direction.

But America is the land of opportunity.

You just need to seize the opportunity, work hard, and your achievement is limited only by your ambition.

America defends democracy and freedom across the world, protecting the rights of individuals who might otherwise be subject to tyranny and oppression.

Everyone wants to live in America, it’s the best place in the world.

And that was even before Trump made it great again.

tony99

capo4th said:

A recent trip to Barbados in Feb staying with friends. There was a large mixture of black and white friends around a table supporting my point. 

Wait, the table was supporting your point?

How on earth did it convey its sentiment?

capo4th

We are friends having a meal and a drink sitting round the table having a civilised conversation. 

You should try it it’s really fantastic.

tony99

haha like in Del Boy when he puts the coffee in the gravy jug

jonnyburgo

As said above, there is 500 yrs of being stood on, disenfranchised, objectified, victimised, scapegoated and stereotyped. The pot has been bubbling for a long long time and when it boils over it really fucking boils over, its not just about what happened last year last month or last week. I cant imagine what it must feel like to be a descendant of slaves and still be living in shit but thats the reality for so many. Malcolm X made a hell of a point with "We didn't land on Plymouth Rock, Plymouth Rock landed on us"

Rich210

@Dominic ;;;; racism is rife in the UK. For example... Heres a fact  black asian and minority men first admission to mental health care is much more likely to be acute care. So what? You can look at a few contributing factors to this...in no order: black Asian and minority ethnic people come up against soft racism on a regular basis. This kind of violence is subtle but non the less violent in its act and pervades the expectations and emotional memory of people being slighted in a casual way throughout their daily interactions in a white dominated society. This could be people crossing the road, people not getting promotions or a job, teachers having different expectations for academic attainment and ability, it could be a doctor or a nurse treating a black Asian or other ethnic minority differently in the consulting room, it could also be social cliques which unconsciously other black people so they are less likely to be able to socially get too know and get along with white people around them. All of these are subtle but pervasive parts of culture which to an extent the equality act tries to mitigate through training and giving black and Asian minority groups more legal leverage.

Another important point to recognise is the impact of lifecourse and family, historical racism which prepares parents. The impact of racism is never isolated to the present moment, and to say that society is less racist today therefore why are they moaning doesn't cut the mustard. Even if contemporary measures to mitigate cultural racism such as kick it out, the equality act, and putting systems in place in the workplace to ensure a fair representation of ethnic diversity which gives rise to opportunity, people from black Asian and ethnic minorities are still effected by historical racism and the anger created from that violence. Mother's and father's have expectations which are subtle and social cues children pick up on and the anger caused from racism. The impact of racism as we're seeing so blatantly is an erosion of the self, and sense of being constrained, and that abuse which over time whether it be from a constant background hum of soft racism or overt racist slur can have devastating effects and the impact that has on parents changes the experience of a developing child. A big issue, which is being amplified across society today, which we all have to contend with is the attempts of populists to erode our trust in authority and normal ways we find credible knowledge. For black Asian and ethnic minority groups the background hum of soft racism goes a long way to contributing to trust issues with authority. So in the context of accessing mental health it results in acute admissions rather than preventative care as systemic racism is already taken for granted knowledge and an emotional expectation.

Racism is rife in the UK. It's not difficult to find racist slur online and on message boards, it's there. Racism in the terraces is common. Newspaper columnists in populist newspapers readily discriminate and treat black people differently to white people. Before CV19 you didn't have to go far to listen in on a conversation about brexit down a pub before you heard the term 'them asians' or them 'blacks' even though race supposedly didn't have anything to do with brexit. You don't have to speak to many people of black Asian or other ethnic minority to hear an account of overt and confrontational racism after the EU referendum. In fact on that very day a fellow student on a course I did walked into the seminar room in tears because a couple of young men told her to go home, she is a black British Muslim from Gorton.

One of my former students failed her driving test on three consecutive occasions, even when her driving instructor was a passenger in the last one because he couldn't believe she would fail. Guess what, she had the same examiner on all three occasions and there was no reasonable reason to fail her on any. Thankfully she got a different examiner on her fourth and passed to the delight of her children. She was from Africa.

Racism comes in many forms and from different sections in society and this can culminate into anger, despair and isolation. The impact of racism, like any traumatic experience can have consequences into adult life and families. A cycle of racism feeding the development of people creates systemic and cultural issues so subtle most people don't even recognize it. But then we see much higher incidences of black Asian and minority ethnic groups getting sectioned, institutionalised, put in prison, live in greater levels of deprivation and are proportionately more likely to be in low paid and precarious work and health inequalities. So all the signs of a subjugated group are there, just open your eyes. 

TTony

Rich210 said:

@Dominic ;;; racism is rife in the UK. For example... Heres a fact  black asian and minority men first admission to mental health care is acute care.

Are you sure that’s “a fact”?

BAME men skip any sort of intermediate steps and go straight into acute care?  All of them?  Every time?  

EdBoogie

Dominic said:

Not really sure why we have it here when it's nothing to do with the UK .Maybe just an excuse to cause trouble.

Let me guess... you're white

TTony

EdBoogie said:

Dominic said:

Not really sure why we have it here when it's nothing to do with the UK .Maybe just an excuse to cause trouble.

Let me guess... you're white

And that’s a racist comment.

Rich210

@TTony ; edited thanks for pointing that out! I think I my predictive text was going funny at the time and I missed some important connecting words out. 

quarky

TTony said:

But America is the land of opportunity.

You just need to seize the opportunity, work hard, and your achievement is limited only by your ambition.

America defends democracy and freedom across the world, protecting the rights of individuals who might otherwise be subject to tyranny and oppression.

Everyone wants to live in America, it’s the best place in the world.

And that was even before Trump made it great again.

Actually, it can be. There is plenty of opportunity, but like a lot of countries, there is less when you are at the bottom. Money makes money, and when you have none, it is a long hard road out of poverty. But the US isn't alone in that regard, and if you are not broke, it has a lot of good things going for it. It just isn't good at looking after the "dregs" of society.

There will always be poor people, life will always be unfair, it is just about making it less unfair for those that have taken the brunt of it for a long time I guess.

Don't forget though, there is black on blank racism too (as well as black on asian, asian on black, etc.). Racism isn't just white on black, or in fact, just a white thing, and I think that is the danger. It is like the comment above about football terraces. It is no good saying "don't make racist chants", because then people chant about something else (Munich, WW2, homosexuality, whatever). The aim should be to just make all the hate and nonsense unacceptable, not just funnel it into other directions. If your focus is too narrow, it is too easy to dismiss it.

TTony

Rich210 said:

@TTony ; edited thanks for pointing that out! I think I my predictive text was going funny at the time and I missed some important connecting words out. 

Unfortunately there are a few more “predictive text” errors in your post.

I observe with the “benefit” of spending my teenage years in the 70s.  Racism then was “rife”.  It wasn’t necessarily vindictive, it just was.  “Those people” were still sufficiently non-integrated to be seen as being different, and, equally, they were (in large part) still sufficiently unintegrated to be seen as part of a separate culture.

Over the intervening 40-odd years, the cultural barriers have become - largely - indistinct and are maintained - largely - by the BAME groups in the interests of protecting or maintaining their heritage.  

It is way too crude to suggest that white discriminate against black.  *Some* (on both sides) do, against *some* (on both sides).  And vice versa.  But you’re more likely to find Catholic vs Protestant discrimination in N. Ireland (or Glasgow) than anything based on skin colour.  Likewise, the Balkan ethnic wars weren’t defined by skin colour.  

Overall, we (the human race) are on a journey.  You don’t flip a switch and remove discrimination (on whatever basis) overnight.  It’s a process that requires a willingness to change (on all sides) and time for opinions and experiences (which are the basis of the opinions) to change.

I’d suggest that racism in the UK is hugely reduced since the 70s.  Sexism is reduced, since the turn of the century.  Whatever -ism is used to define sexual orientation and identity is similarly reduced since the 80s and probsbly last decade, respectively.  I’d also suggest that the UK has made way more progress than some other countries (incl the US).

Perfect?  Unlikely.  But that works both ways.



Still, on the upside, #blacklivesmatter (disappointingly racist) has displaced #metoo (disappointingly sexist) and  we’d get a new virtue signalling theme at the Oscars if they’re not cancelled.