Why do you think the forum has a retention issue?

TimmyO

There's some really interesting things in this thread - it's made me think beyond what *I* want/like/don't like about a guitar forum (or any online community) and think about what people the age of my (teen) sons might want or expect or benefit from. 

And yes that would be quite different to what we have/do/perpetuate. 

I'm unclear though on whether that's a problem - this isn't my forum (it belongs to a small group of people - I think - I don't pretend to know any more about that side of things than anyone else) so only they can say whether what's happening in terms of what it provides and whether or not it is growing etc etc is bang on target or somehow falling short. 

I'm not sure if asking what the aims for the forum are has just got missed in the noise of the thread or whether it's a closely guarded secret. If the latter the thread is moot. 

Bridgehouse

TimmyO said:

There's some really interesting things in this thread - it's made me think beyond what *I* want/like/don't like about a guitar forum (or any online community) and think about what people the age of my (teen) sons might want or expect or benefit from. 

And yes that would be quite different to what we have/do/perpetuate. 

I'm unclear though on whether that's a problem - this isn't my forum (it belongs to a small group of people - I think - I don't pretend to know any more about that side of things than anyone else) so only they can say whether what's happening in terms of what it provides and whether or not it is growing etc etc is bang on target or somehow falling short. 

I'm not sure if asking what the aims for the forum are has just got missed in the noise of the thread or whether it's a closely guarded secret. If the latter the thread is moot. 

There's no closely guarded secret at all. In fact, it's probably difficult to give a very precise answer to the question of what the aims of the forum are.

It was started as a place for people to go after the musicradar/intermusic/other older forums died a painful death. 

Since then it's grown, but in essence it's always been about providing a community space for guitarists (and other musicians) to come to and discuss their hobby/passion/job/interest. The community aspect is important - whether that's advice, support, an opportunity to meet up and socialise, or to buy and sell gear. 

Beyond that, from an admin point of view we don't have a written down set of growth targets, retention targets, or anything else. Fundamentally our main objectives are to keep the lights on, make sure there is a degree of moderation to ensure the community remains functional and broadly on track, and stop nefarious types from spamming, scamming, denying service and/or causing disruption. 

Recently we have done some analytics, and some of the resulting information has surprised us - if anything not negatively but positively - we have a larger audience than we thought, and there is a steady growth. Putting ads on for non-registered users was a way of getting them to contribute to the upkeep and taking the burden off us begging from the signed up members as much. 

And in saying this, I would say that I personally would like to feel that the forum could appeal to as wide a range of ages, abilities, and demographs as possible. The biggest issue from my perspective is, of course, that it's impossible to keep all of the people happy all of the time, but you can keep most of the people happy most of the time. Inevitably that means some people will feel unhappy some of the time. 

TTony

TimmyO said:

I'm not sure if asking what the aims for the forum are has just got missed in the noise of the thread or whether it's a closely guarded secret. If the latter the thread is moot. 

To be completely honest, when we originally set up the forum - getting on for 10years ago now! - we didn't really think through our aims, a vision or purpose, or any of those other things that you might normally do.

Partly because we were rushing to just get it functioning before the old MusicRadar people got lost forever, and partly because we didn't really expect it to still be here in 10years time.  We assumed that MR would return with something else, and this forum would have a relatively short lifespan.

We built it, and operated it, more or less as a platform for the community to use as they wanted to use it.  Hence the rules were fairly vague and fairly relaxed  and we'd rely on members deciding what they didn't like and flagging it.

That worked well - IMHO - when the forum was small and largely made up of MR refugees who shared a fairly common view of what "a guitar forum" should do, and how it should work, based on our shared experiences of using MR over the years.

As this forum has grown hugely from the 200-or-so who joined in the first week or two, that original unstated understanding of "values" and aims has been diluted a little, or perhaps it's evolved a little, as new members bring new opinions.

It's been evolutionary rather than revolutionary because the revolutionaries tend either not to join up (because they don't like what they see in terms of content, behaviours , etc), or they join up but don't stay long when they find the general forum culture not to their liking, or the general forum culture finds them not to its liking!

If we had 2,000 teenage guitar playing girls (ie just about the opposite of the current demographic) join overnight, then the forum would rapidly become a different place. 

That's unlikely to happen though, so it'll likely continue to evolve gently and slowly instead.  It doesn't seem to be fading away though.  There's enough incoming membership to offset those who move away (for whatever reason), and significant growth  in volumes, or change in membership demographics and culture, would likely introduce more issues than would be helpful.

WiresDreamDisasters

I doubt the Musicradar forum disappearing was an accident. Probably semi-planned as part of their move towards pointless news aggregate website. They used to be my go-to for news. I barely ever look on there now.

TimmyO

Bridgehouse said:

TimmyO said:

There's some really interesting things in this thread - it's made me think beyond what *I* want/like/don't like about a guitar forum (or any online community) and think about what people the age of my (teen) sons might want or expect or benefit from. 

And yes that would be quite different to what we have/do/perpetuate. 

I'm unclear though on whether that's a problem - this isn't my forum (it belongs to a small group of people - I think - I don't pretend to know any more about that side of things than anyone else) so only they can say whether what's happening in terms of what it provides and whether or not it is growing etc etc is bang on target or somehow falling short. 

I'm not sure if asking what the aims for the forum are has just got missed in the noise of the thread or whether it's a closely guarded secret. If the latter the thread is moot. 

There's no closely guarded secret at all. In fact, it's probably difficult to give a very precise answer to the question of what the aims of the forum are.

It was started as a place for people to go after the musicradar/intermusic/other older forums died a painful death. 

Since then it's grown, but in essence it's always been about providing a community space for guitarists (and other musicians) to come to and discuss their hobby/passion/job/interest. The community aspect is important - whether that's advice, support, an opportunity to meet up and socialise, or to buy and sell gear. 

Beyond that, from an admin point of view we don't have a written down set of growth targets, retention targets, or anything else. Fundamentally our main objectives are to keep the lights on, make sure there is a degree of moderation to ensure the community remains functional and broadly on track, and stop nefarious types from spamming, scamming, denying service and/or causing disruption. 

Recently we have done some analytics, and some of the resulting information has surprised us - if anything not negatively but positively - we have a larger audience than we thought, and there is a steady growth. Putting ads on for non-registered users was a way of getting them to contribute to the upkeep and taking the burden off us begging from the signed up members as much. 

And in saying this, I would say that I personally would like to feel that the forum could appeal to as wide a range of ages, abilities, and demographs as possible. The biggest issue from my perspective is, of course, that it's impossible to keep all of the people happy all of the time, but you can keep most of the people happy most of the time. Inevitably that means some people will feel unhappy some of the time. 

Communities self-organise, unless a chunk of effort goes into organising them the way you want them .

re:

I personally would like to feel that the forum could appeal to as wide a range of ages, abilities, and demographs as possible

I think we mostly accept that it doesn't do that (comments in this thread wold seem to support and accept that) - so if that were an aim of the "management" then it'd need specific effort to shift in that direction. 

I thought the idea earlier re a section that was overtly beginner friendly/tolerant was interesting - it'd need a different degree and tone of moderation, and it sounds like it's been rejected already (perhaps for that reason?) - but that's the thing - if that's an aim, it will take work, over time, done consistently. But it may be worth it. 

Taking yours and @TTony replies above jointly - I get how we got here - and was glad of it for lots of reasons. That gets us here. If we're happy with here, conversation over. If there's any desire for something different, that takes a different approach. It's the simple "what got us here won't easily get us somewhere else"

If there is appetite for change of any sort, to be "over there", then the conversations about it can't be dominated by why we are "here".

axisus

WiresDreamDisasters said:

I doubt the Musicradar forum disappearing was an accident. Probably semi-planned as part of their move towards pointless news aggregate website. They used to be my go-to for news. I barely ever look on there now.

I was so pissed off at the totally shitty way they treated their forum members, I avoid MusicRadar at all costs and have ever since. The management were a bunch of tossers.

TTony

WiresDreamDisasters said:

I doubt the Musicradar forum disappearing was an accident. Probably semi-planned as part of their move towards pointless news aggregate website. They used to be my go-to for news. I barely ever look on there now.

For sure - completely planned.  Though we didn't realise that at the time.

Though it does show that you might have an objective, plan for it and implement the plan ...  but completely fail to achieve it!  Not just because a bunch of pesky kids come along and  nick a chuck of your planned customer base.

WiresDreamDisasters

TimmyO said:

re:

I personally would like to feel that the forum could appeal to as wide a range of ages, abilities, and demographs as possible

I think we mostly accept that it doesn't do that (comments in this thread wold seem to support and accept that) - so if that were an aim of the "management" then it'd need specific effort to shift in that direction. 

I thought the idea earlier re a section that was overtly beginner friendly/tolerant was interesting - it'd need a different degree and tone of moderation, and it sounds like it's been rejected already (perhaps for that reason?) - but that's the thing - if that's an aim, it will take work, over time, done consistently. But it may be worth it. 

Taking yours and @TTony replies above jointly - I get how we got here - and was glad of it for lots of reasons. That gets us here. If we're happy with here, conversation over. If there's any desire for something different, that takes a different approach. It's the simple "what got us here won't easily get us somewhere else"

If there is appetite for change of any sort, to be "over there", then the conversations about it can't be dominated by why we are "here".

I don't think it's too bad at accepting people from all ages, abilities, and demographics. There are no signs on the door saying no XYZ. At the same time, a certain kind of person is looking for more comfort and safety than what the culture of this forum (and other forums) can provide given the way they are organically formed. Like most places on the internet (and in real life) if you're looking to be coddled and not have to confront anything that makes you uneasy, you're really going to struggle. I don't blame that on anything - to me it just seems like it's part of life. There's stuff that makes me uneasy and pissed off all the time. I tolerate it.

At the same time, there are things that could be done. I like the idea of a beginners section. I like the idea of a digital modelling section (always have, and it's always been rejected as being too niche, but I think people go to TGP explicitly for that) and I also like the idea of bringing the luthiers out of the made in the UK section - give them their own sub forums!

TimmyO

WiresDreamDisasters said:

TimmyO said:

re:

I personally would like to feel that the forum could appeal to as wide a range of ages, abilities, and demographs as possible

I think we mostly accept that it doesn't do that (comments in this thread wold seem to support and accept that) - so if that were an aim of the "management" then it'd need specific effort to shift in that direction. 

I thought the idea earlier re a section that was overtly beginner friendly/tolerant was interesting - it'd need a different degree and tone of moderation, and it sounds like it's been rejected already (perhaps for that reason?) - but that's the thing - if that's an aim, it will take work, over time, done consistently. But it may be worth it. 

Taking yours and @TTony replies above jointly - I get how we got here - and was glad of it for lots of reasons. That gets us here. If we're happy with here, conversation over. If there's any desire for something different, that takes a different approach. It's the simple "what got us here won't easily get us somewhere else"

If there is appetite for change of any sort, to be "over there", then the conversations about it can't be dominated by why we are "here".

I don't think it's too bad at accepting people from all ages, abilities, and demographics. There are no signs on the door saying no XYZ. At the same time, a certain kind of person is looking for more comfort and safety than what the culture of this forum (and other forums) can provide given the way they are organically formed. Like most places on the internet (and in real life)

Agree with that. Being accepting of and appealing to are different things as you imply. 

You go on to choose the word "coddle" - and here's the rub - if we wanted to attract, retain, be popular with, and credible to/for a different demographic, it'd take conscious effort to create that environment. If that will feel like "coddling" and piss you off, it'll be a hard act to pull off. 

hollywoodrox

It’s a great board and better than the rest in its knowledgeabase . I sometimes get carried away with my rants on here , I’m going to keep myself in check in the future 

ps someone told me about it around 2015 I think 

Jalapeno

WiresDreamDisasters said:

I doubt the Musicradar forum disappearing was an accident. Probably semi-planned as part of their move towards pointless news aggregate website. They used to be my go-to for news. I barely ever look on there now.

Yep, mindless numpties lost a ready-made membership. They never got the internet anyway, they were a paper magazine producer and it all orbited that core purpose.  Compare and contrast SoundOnSound philosophy.

scrumhalf

There are parts of this forum that have contributed significantly to the improvement of members' lives, either musically or in terms of life in general. For that alone it deserves credit.

There are of course those whose involvement necessitates their hijacking of threads in order to validate their opinions. Their involvement generally means I don't read the thread thereafter but that mirrors life in general.

People come, people go. 

wintoid

I'm relatively new, having been here since about June 2021 or so.

I came for various reasons, the main one being to learn.  I feel pretty confident I can ask silly questions on this forum and get good advice and not be attacked for being an idiot.  That's one reason I'm still here.

I bought a brand new guitar in June, because I wouldn't have known how to buy a decent second hand one without getting ripped off.  I've since accumulated a couple of second hand guitars, as a result of some of the learning I've done here.  Thank you all!

In combination with the vast quantity of Youtube stuff around, TFB is an integral part of my learning.  Quite often I find someone is asking the question I need the answer to, particularly on the technique side.  However, I do think this sort of hobbyist forum becomes inherently materialistic (me too!) and becomes about gear.  It's just a bit easier to talk about gear as you never run out of gas.

However, it's clear that it's a male-dominated forum, and maybe a bit tilted towards older gents.  I would probably not venture my own political opinions on here as I think it would lead to an unproductive discussion, and maybe this is just not the right place to be talking about such stuff.  I think like many people I'm just exhausted with the whole leave/remain mask/antimask polarised discussions, and there are too many of those for my liking.  It's not enough to make me want to bugger off, but it does mean I don't feel 100% at home.  If it was Gibson vs Fender, perhaps it would feel more light hearted.

Anyway, I'm overwhelmingly grateful for having the chance to participate in this society.  If I've been a quieter-than-average member, you know why.

Hope my comments are remotely helpful and not perceived too harshly

joeyowen

My personal opinion (and could be incorrect) is that it is quite 'glass half empty' at times.

You can start a thread about a brand/shop/song/youtuber/video and from my experience it turns into a few positives, but a lot of negatives.  This is amplified when it's big names be it Mary Spender, Chappers etc...  It may be that we don't like them, fair enough.  But there is a good chance a lot of our potential members do.  So if they find things via google, it just doesn't strike me as, sign up here!

Love it here, but I post a lot less than I used to

VimFuego

wintoid said:

I'm relatively new, having been here since about June 2021 or so.

I came for various reasons, the main one being to learn.  I feel pretty confident I can ask silly questions on this forum and get good advice and not be attacked for being an idiot.  That's one reason I'm still here.

I bought a brand new guitar in June, because I wouldn't have known how to buy a decent second hand one without getting ripped off.  I've since accumulated a couple of second hand guitars, as a result of some of the learning I've done here.  Thank you all!

In combination with the vast quantity of Youtube stuff around, TFB is an integral part of my learning.  Quite often I find someone is asking the question I need the answer to, particularly on the technique side.  However, I do think this sort of hobbyist forum becomes inherently materialistic (me too!) and becomes about gear.  It's just a bit easier to talk about gear as you never run out of gas.

However, it's clear that it's a male-dominated forum, and maybe a bit tilted towards older gents.  I would probably not venture my own political opinions on here as I think it would lead to an unproductive discussion, and maybe this is just not the right place to be talking about such stuff.  I think like many people I'm just exhausted with the whole leave/remain mask/antimask polarised discussions, and there are too many of those for my liking.  It's not enough to make me want to bugger off, but it does mean I don't feel 100% at home.  If it was Gibson vs Fender, perhaps it would feel more light hearted.

Anyway, I'm overwhelmingly grateful for having the chance to participate in this society.  If I've been a quieter-than-average member, you know why.

Hope my comments are remotely helpful and not perceived too harshly

yeah, I guess we should apologise about that, this place can be bad for your wallet.

Yorkie

I joined in 2021, so I am one of the newer players here. I did a lot of research before joining. I found most other places including TGP were full of arrogant teenage-mentality keyboard warriors with a staggering tendency to groupthink. 

You may get the odd arrogant reply here (particularly when you are early in the learning curve like me), but it is usually followed by a ton of useful and constructive comments. And I have also learned to try and find value in the arrogant replies as well.

Jon

WiresDreamDisasters

joeyowen said:

My personal opinion (and could be incorrect) is that it is quite 'glass half empty' at times.

You can start a thread about a brand/shop/song/youtuber/video and from my experience it turns into a few positives, but a lot of negatives.  This is amplified when it's big names be it Mary Spender, Chappers etc...  It may be that we don't like them, fair enough.  But there is a good chance a lot of our potential members do.  So if they find things via google, it just doesn't strike me as, sign up here!

Love it here, but I post a lot less than I used to

I always wonder if that's what we really mean when we say 'UK-centric'.

For all of my political and aggressive posting in P&E and OT Corona type places... you don't see me filling up the on-topic sections with bile, generally speaking. I admire most guitarists, even if they're not exactly my genre or my cuppa tea. For anyone to pick it up and give it a bash I think is great. 

monquixote

Jalapeno said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:

I doubt the Musicradar forum disappearing was an accident. Probably semi-planned as part of their move towards pointless news aggregate website. They used to be my go-to for news. I barely ever look on there now.

Yep, mindless numpties lost a ready-made membership. They never got the internet anyway, they were a paper magazine producer and it all orbited that core purpose.  Compare and contrast SoundOnSound philosophy.

I am doubtful of this: "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon's_razor

TimmyO

Away from tone/content, the platform itself is a drag factor - particularly on mobile. I know Lee has lots of reasons for preferring not to (hosting on already owned server rather than extra cost for a DO droplet among them) but a shift over to Discourse* (for example) would be a huge step imo. 

* not a typo of Discord 

Iamnobody

TimmyO said:

Away from tone/content, the platform itself is a drag factor - particularly on mobile. I know Lee has lots of reasons for preferring not to (hosting on already owned server rather than extra cost for a DO droplet among them) but a shift over to Discourse* (for example) would be a huge step imo. 

* not a typo of Discord 

On the flip side I only use the forum on a mobile device and think it’s great. I also seem to be able to access this place when I’ve got really poor signal and other sites won’t load. Not sure why that is?