Why do you think the forum has a retention issue?

darthed1981

joeyowen said:

This is amplified when it's big names be it Mary Spender, ...etc...  It may be that we don't like them, fair enough.  

To be fair, some of us like them..

Hi Mary

thecolourbox

I use YouTube quite a lot when I want to take in content visually or audially (is that a word?) But I very rarely feel the need to comment or contribute other than taking on what I've watched or listened to and perhaps using it to help to form my opinion on something.

Is that presumably how the non-posting people on here use the content here? For when you want information that is written not visual, and usually much more detailed on the technical side and where people are likely to have questioned that info with the same kind of questions you might have as well? Especially as that info is largely given by people who are not driven by their viewing stats and subscription numbers, or by having been given kit to demonstrate favourably?

It's not a bad thing in that sense, and it makes sense to add the Google adverts for people who use it that way in my opinion.

I'm not necessarily the typical forum demographic (mid 30s hipster who doesn't like 80s rock or technical soloing) though share some things in common with the typical demographic (white male who largely plays in their spare time at home with the restraints that brings).

I do however sometimes feel the retention of me as a user (especially as I left for a while and then came back) may actually be a negative for the site and users in general though, but I don't think that's anybody's fault but my own (or my perception)

TTony

wintoid said:

  I would probably not venture my own political opinions on here as I think it would lead to an unproductive discussion, and maybe this is just not the right place to be talking about such stuff.  I think like many people I'm just exhausted with the whole leave/remain mask/antimask polarised discussions, and there are too many of those for my liking.  

@wintoid ;

The political / economic / Covid discussions are split of into separate sub-forums specifically so that you don't have to see any of the (generally) pointless aggravation that goes on in there, if you're using the "Recent Discussions" view to look at threads here.

As long as you're not using a phone ... go to the forum's home page, hover your mouse over those section titles, and a black cog wheel (settings) should appear in line with the title.  Click on that, choose "Hide", and you'll never again have those threads showing in your Recent Discussions view.

We call it "the sanity saver".

joeyowen

WiresDreamDisasters said:

joeyowen said:

My personal opinion (and could be incorrect) is that it is quite 'glass half empty' at times.

You can start a thread about a brand/shop/song/youtuber/video and from my experience it turns into a few positives, but a lot of negatives.  This is amplified when it's big names be it Mary Spender, Chappers etc...  It may be that we don't like them, fair enough.  But there is a good chance a lot of our potential members do.  So if they find things via google, it just doesn't strike me as, sign up here!

Love it here, but I post a lot less than I used to

I always wonder if that's what we really mean when we say 'UK-centric'.

For all of my political and aggressive posting in P&E and OT Corona type places... you don't see me filling up the on-topic sections with bile, generally speaking. I admire most guitarists, even if they're not exactly my genre or my cuppa tea. For anyone to pick it up and give it a bash I think is great. 

yeah, to be fair I'm probably guilty of it myself.

The most obvious for me was the Rabea/Stormzy thread.  It just turned into a big long discussion of do we like him or not.  That wasn't the point, he's a good guitarist doing amazing things.  We could instead be talking about the guitar/role of guitarists/gear/ etc.. etc... but it's just endless discussions of do we like or not.

I'm used to it as a football fan.  Any football thread ever started has the token "I do not like football" post.  Then why come into the fucking thread then?

Still, I like here a lot.  But, would I join today if I hadn't been before.  Not sure, couldn't say.

I also know the irony of how negative I'm being in this thread ha

WiresDreamDisasters

joeyowen said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:

joeyowen said:

My personal opinion (and could be incorrect) is that it is quite 'glass half empty' at times.

You can start a thread about a brand/shop/song/youtuber/video and from my experience it turns into a few positives, but a lot of negatives.  This is amplified when it's big names be it Mary Spender, Chappers etc...  It may be that we don't like them, fair enough.  But there is a good chance a lot of our potential members do.  So if they find things via google, it just doesn't strike me as, sign up here!

Love it here, but I post a lot less than I used to

I always wonder if that's what we really mean when we say 'UK-centric'.

For all of my political and aggressive posting in P&E and OT Corona type places... you don't see me filling up the on-topic sections with bile, generally speaking. I admire most guitarists, even if they're not exactly my genre or my cuppa tea. For anyone to pick it up and give it a bash I think is great. 

yeah, to be fair I'm probably guilty of it myself.

The most obvious for me was the Rabea/Stormzy thread.  It just turned into a big long discussion of do we like him or not.  That wasn't the point, he's a good guitarist doing amazing things.  We could instead be talking about the guitar/role of guitarists/gear/ etc.. etc... but it's just endless discussions of do we like or not.

I'm used to it as a football fan.  Any football thread ever started has the token "I do not like football" post.  Then why come into the fucking thread then?

Still, I like here a lot.  But, would I join today if I hadn't been before.  Not sure, couldn't say.

I also know the irony of how negative I'm being in this thread ha

I agree with you and I'm also the guy posting "I don't like football" in football threads

Yorkie

wintoid said:
In combination with the vast quantity of Youtube stuff around, TFB is an integral part of my learning.  Quite often I find someone is asking the question I need the answer to, particularly on the technique side.  However, I do think this sort of hobbyist forum becomes inherently materialistic (me too!) and becomes about gear.  It's just a bit easier to talk about gear as you never run out of gas.

I fully agree with this. And regarding gear, I must say I have made some great purchases based on recommendations I've got here, and many I was able to find in the classifieds. I find the prices here are generally not overblown as in other places; furthermore, the quality of the interaction with the sellers has been so great that in many cases I have ended up forming a strong bond with whatever I have bought, e.g. Andy's looper, or Bob's Micro Cube. 

What recommendations you choose to follow up on is a tricky thing though. To address that, I tend to approach GAS backwards: I go to the classifieds, look for stuff I might find interesting (e.g. an overdrive), then check whatever great things the seller has said about the item in the past year and put them into perspective on the fact that they're not keeping it. Many glowing recommendations lose their sparkle when you read them in this sequence.

Hope my comments are remotely helpful and not perceived too harshly

Some of us do find factual messages refreshing. 

Jon

Yorkie

darthed1981 said:  
To be fair, some of us like them..

I resumed playing after a 20-year hiatus thanks to a Mary Spender video. One of those 'things I wish I had known when I was starting' videos YouTubers put out there in their hundreds, only this one was actually insightful.

Jon

BillDL

fretmeister said:

......  I suspect people like sticking with their own Time Zones so active stuff happens while they are awake. .......

THAT is an aspect that completely escaped me, being a nightshift worker, but it does make sense.  One US-based IT forum that I have actively participated in for about 18 years, during which have made friendships with people from several countries, sees most of its activity during daytime and early evening in America which is 5 to 8 hours behind us, so I can sometimes catch the "live" discussions while we are all still awake.

Bridgehouse

TimmyO said:

I think we mostly accept that it doesn't do that (comments in this thread wold seem to support and accept that) - so if that were an aim of the "management" then it'd need specific effort to shift in that direction. 

I thought the idea earlier re a section that was overtly beginner friendly/tolerant was interesting - it'd need a different degree and tone of moderation, and it sounds like it's been rejected already (perhaps for that reason?) - but that's the thing - if that's an aim, it will take work, over time, done consistently. But it may be worth it. 

Taking yours and @TTony replies above jointly - I get how we got here - and was glad of it for lots of reasons. That gets us here. If we're happy with here, conversation over. If there's any desire for something different, that takes a different approach. It's the simple "what got us here won't easily get us somewhere else"

If there is appetite for change of any sort, to be "over there", then the conversations about it can't be dominated by why we are "here".

There's loads of stuff the admin team have discussed as things we'd "like" to do - so there's appetite. Your other comment about the mobile interface is just as pertinent here - we'd love to get the whole site revamped and improve the search function (no way!) and all sorts of other stuff.

The main blocker is time. Lee is the main point for a lot of the work - and we can collectively only expect him to do so much given he has to do a job, interact with a family, play guitar, be in a band, have a life.. etc. etc. 

It's the same for us mods too. As volunteers we try to put as much time in as we can, but when stuff in life happens then it can get tricky. The reality is that the time we have and the effort we can put in means we can maintain the "here" pretty easily - with some tweaks and changes as we go along. 

Anything more than that requires a radical shift - which is why the other thread about Ads for non-members is interesting. Any potential revenue will equal more capacity to do stuff - whether that's Lee being able to go part time at work to put more time in or something else.

I'm personally not bothered about any remuneration for the mod stuff. I'm here because it's a fab community, I've met some superb people and meet up with lots of fretboarders to jam as much as I can. Being a modmin is just a way of giving something back. 

But the reality is any ambition to change, improve, develop and grow the forum does sadly require time and effort which usually translates to money

TimmyO

Bridgehouse said:

TimmyO said:

I think we mostly accept that it doesn't do that (comments in this thread wold seem to support and accept that) - so if that were an aim of the "management" then it'd need specific effort to shift in that direction. 

I thought the idea earlier re a section that was overtly beginner friendly/tolerant was interesting - it'd need a different degree and tone of moderation, and it sounds like it's been rejected already (perhaps for that reason?) - but that's the thing - if that's an aim, it will take work, over time, done consistently. But it may be worth it. 

Taking yours and @TTony replies above jointly - I get how we got here - and was glad of it for lots of reasons. That gets us here. If we're happy with here, conversation over. If there's any desire for something different, that takes a different approach. It's the simple "what got us here won't easily get us somewhere else"

If there is appetite for change of any sort, to be "over there", then the conversations about it can't be dominated by why we are "here".

The main blocker is time. Lee is the main point for a lot of the work - and we can collectively only expect him to do so much given he has to do a job, interact with a family, play guitar, be in a band, have a life.. etc. etc. 

I get that - and I've seen it come up before when this is discussed. iirc that's in significant part to the solutions being chosen being things Lee would do. Other solutions are available. Given that this has been the situation for some time (what, years? ) then I guess it's not likely to happen. At what point, if the desire is still there for changes, do those decisions become worth revisiting? 

without meaning to sound unduly harsh, see again my closing comment above. 

TimmyO

Also for context (I was going to say 'balance' but I hate the whole media "balance for balance sake" so I won't lol) - I had a long time "off" guitar - including forums and playing and gear - the works. When I came back to it, I came back here, not TGP or anywhere else. I don't want to seem like I hate it :-) 

Bridgehouse

TimmyO said:

I get that - and I've seen it come up before when this is discussed. iirc that's in significant part to the solutions being chosen being things Lee would do. Other solutions are available. Given that this has been the situation for some time (what, years? ) then I guess it's not likely to happen. At what point, if the desire is still there for changes, do those decisions become worth revisiting? 

without meaning to sound unduly harsh, see again my closing comment above. 

To be fair, it's not really my decision. I would have an input into it with the other modmins, as would the rest of the forum, but ultimately it's something Lee would have to drive, and it's his decision whether to do that or not.

Now, that will, in part, come down to motivation, desire to do it, and a whole heap of other factors - including how us modmins would support and help, and how the forum as a whole would react or benefit from any change. 

I do agree with previous comments that there's far too much navel gazing though. We are where we are, the forum fulfils a role, and in the most part it does it pretty well. It isn't in decline, if anything it's still growing. There's a lot of positives, and we often forget that or don't talk about it. I actually can't give you an answer as to why that's the case either. 

I do know one thing though - the general forum membership talk about this stuff in far more detail, especially the "why are we here" angle far far more than the modmin team do...

Bridgehouse

TimmyO said:

Also for context (I was going to say 'balance' but I hate the whole media "balance for balance sake" so I won't lol) - I had a long time "off" guitar - including forums and playing and gear - the works. When I came back to it, I came back here, not TGP or anywhere else. I don't want to seem like I hate it :-) 

I didn't for a minute think you did.. this is a really decent, mature, grown up conversation about the forum where everyone's views are being expressed politely, articulated well and there's a good range of opinion. 

There's a lot of forums out there that wouldn't tolerate this sort of thread at all. Which I think is sad - as it's bloody useful to get opinions from the membership and understand how people are thinking.

sev112

I love this place 
apart from the occasional bullying behaviour which seems to come from the same 2 places and gets me down
which is why a beginners “safe” section might be a good idea, because I would love to say that’s the behaviour we should apply always, but some people just do what some people tend to do (see above)
i love the simplicity by which I can navigate the site, by computer, ipad and phones, and hate other forums that have all sorts of bars and banners etc.
and I love the membership, apart from the aforementioned few who get me down
and I love the support to members in need 

And I love the fact that this is all run by the kindness of a few peopel
so thanks for all that

Sassafras

People don't hang around once they discover the average age of our members is about 85.

Stuckfast

fob said:

Jalapeno said:

 misogynist. 

Again, I'm not saying this wrong just that I haven't seen it. Which thread/post is the latest example of this?

Well there was the infamous 'M|LF' thread in Off Topic a while back. And it doesn't seem possible to discuss the music of artists such as St Vincent without gratuitous photos and thigh-rubbing.

Snags

That's not misogynistic it's just a bit sexist and a lot unnecessary and inappropriate. It's like saying chunks of mumsnet are full of misandry if they bang on about Jason Mamoa or similar.   

digitalscream

TimmyO said:

Away from tone/content, the platform itself is a drag factor - particularly on mobile. I know Lee has lots of reasons for preferring not to (hosting on already owned server rather than extra cost for a DO droplet among them) but a shift over to Discourse* (for example) would be a huge step imo. 

* not a typo of Discord 

The thing is, I've tried migrations to all of the available forums solutions, including Discourse.

The main black mark that Discourse has against it is the massive hosting requirements for the traffic levels we have - even hosting on DigitalOcean, it would cost at least three times as much as Vanilla to handle it at decent levels of performance, not to mention that it has a bunch of architectural choices which are (in my opinion) short-sighted and based entirely on flavour-of-the-month technologies, and thus a maintenance headache waiting to happen.

The problem that all of them have is that while they all have migration packages for Vanilla, every single one of them crashes because they're so poorly-written. Because everybody kept going on about Discourse, I actually spent two days trying to fix their Vanilla import code, and then gave up. Don't get me wrong, I love the fact that it's written in Rails, I just don't love the way the project's run, the front end code or the mandatory Sidekiq and Redis components when they're entirely unnecessary and apparently only there to cover up the cracks in the back end optimisation.

Other forum projects suffer from different issues, the main one being that they're usually written in PHP, so moving to them wouldn't really be an improvement over what we already have ("a bunch of loosely-taped-together PHP code" is the #1 bug in Vanilla...).

I'm a little opinionated, it's true.

digitalscream

Regarding the makeup of the community...I don't see it as management's job to direct the community, beyond keeping the peace and trying to build relationships with outside entities which might benefit that community. Basically, from my perspective, the community existed long before this place did, and so our job is to maintain it in such a way that the community continues to exist in whatever form it finds most comfortable (while still being compatible with the modmins' lives).

Trying to force a demographic change, or persuade people to join when they otherwise wouldn't, would primarily be two things:

1 - A futile endeavour, because it will always shift back to its equilibrium state
2 - A recipe for conflict and - ultimately - becoming a ghost town

That's plain to see from the demise of every forum that's ever tried to do it, and I've watched it happen to many forums I've been involved with since I first joined the Queensryche message board back in 1995. I have no desire for that to happen here, particularly not on my watch.

Kittyfrisk

digitalscream said:

TimmyO said:

Away from tone/content, the platform itself is a drag factor - particularly on mobile. I know Lee has lots of reasons for preferring not to (hosting on already owned server rather than extra cost for a DO droplet among them) but a shift over to Discourse* (for example) would be a huge step imo. 

* not a typo of Discord 

The thing is, I've tried migrations to all of the available forums solutions, including Discourse.

The main black mark that Discourse has against it is the massive hosting requirements for the traffic levels we have - even hosting on DigitalOcean, it would cost at least three times as much as Vanilla to handle it at decent levels of performance, not to mention that it has a bunch of architectural choices which are (in my opinion) short-sighted and based entirely on flavour-of-the-month technologies, and thus a maintenance headache waiting to happen.

The problem that all of them have is that while they all have migration packages for Vanilla, every single one of them crashes because they're so poorly-written. Because everybody kept going on about Discourse, I actually spent two days trying to fix their Vanilla import code, and then gave up. Don't get me wrong, I love the fact that it's written in Rails, I just don't love the way the project's run, the front end code or the mandatory Sidekiq and Redis components when they're entirely unnecessary and apparently only there to cover up the cracks in the back end optimisation.

Other forum projects suffer from different issues, the main one being that they're usually written in PHP, so moving to them wouldn't really be an improvement over what we already have ("a bunch of loosely-taped-together PHP code" is the #1 bug in Vanilla...).

I'm a little opinionated, it's true.

I think you possibly meant ... "I'm a little experienced, it's true".