2020 Fretboard Virtual Running Club

TTony

King85 said:

TTony said:

Week 5, day 1, done.

Not too hard either.  This running thing is turning out OK!

Good work mate! I speak to so many people who say they hate running when really they hate being unfit, put in the hard graft initially and then you get to enjoy the spoils when the fitness catches up.

Have you got an event you're training for?

The rest of week 5 gets a bit tougher ... running for 20min continuously at the end of the week.  Starting to get real.

No real objective @king85 - just something that I’ve wanted to do for a while and now I’ve got the time to do it. Be good to shift a kg or two too.

King85

If definitely recommend considering an event at some point. The first one I completed was such a great motivator and it felt great crossing the finish line.

Great work though and while it will start to ramp up you'll find the training will pay off and you'll suprise yourself with what you can do.

mcsdan

7.14miles off road this morning. This was a fasted run so no food/drink - just water - after last nights run. Then straight out this morning with just a small black coffee to start and no food before or during the run. The idea behind this is that the body uses a ratio of glycogen(sugars) and fats when you run. The less carbs it has available i.e. depleted from last nights run plus fasting, the more efficient it has to be with using what carbs are left and burn more fats for fueling. Burning fats initially is quite tough on the body so first few miles are always tough doing this but it gets easier the more you train it. I have done full marathons like this in the past and upto a 20 miler in training fasted. Needless to say pace drops off quite a bit!

Why do this? Well ,the body when fully stocked can hold about 1800 calories of glycogen/sugar fuel in muscles and liver. This would equate to around 3 hours/18-20 miles for a club level marathon runner. When you run out of this you hit "the wall". In a marathon you can take gels/food/drinks to restock some of the glycogen/sugar whilst running but the body can only absorb about 200-300 calories an hour like this compared to the 6-700 calories being burnt. Hence in a marathon, if you get the intake right and have trained it well, you can just about get to the end with enough fuel. Depends upon fitness/speed etc. However the races I do are considerably longer than marathons and end up with about a 8-10,000 calorie deficit at the end of the race. 12,000 burnt, approx 2-4000 taken in. Hence the body has to fuel the running with fats. The body, even with low body fat, holds approx 55,000 calories in fat. Hence being able to tap into this is a good way to fuel long distance races. The caveat is that pace is slow and you still have to take in some carbs to keep the brain working properly (can use fats but doesn't like it). Taking in carbs over an extended period is harder than it sounds since the body reduces blood supply to the stomach. I've seen lots of runners throwing up in races and also many get it wrong and pull out. Hence training for all of this is good practice.

Travisthedog

Help! 

I’m running every other day now and boshed put a few  5k trips with out much issue. Pace is slow at average 6.05/km but I dont care.

My main issue is some nights I go out and felel like I could run forever other nights like tonight I can’t even get to the bottom of the road. I’m fucked out here tonight. Currently sat on a park bench!! With abs average of 8/km

I think my technique is crap as left knee starting to hurt

why is this Happening!??!!

mcsdan

few things at play I suspect.

- the cold weather really affects muscles and breathing. Don't underestimate the impact of cold.

-  you may have cumulative fatigue from previous runs. Hence having an easy week every 3-4 weeks does help. By easy I mean cut the volume and/or intensity. Also mixing up runs rather than going all out all the time. Plan in an effort run, an easy run and perhaps a technique run/hill repeats/intervals etc. Breaks it up mentally and also hits different aspects of running fitness.

- for knee pain check your cadence and form. Most runners land with knee straight out and on the heel. This causes impact through the knee joint. Shorten your stride but move feet quicker i.e. increase cadence. This reduces the chance of heel striking with foot in front of the knee. (heel striking isn't bad but it's where it lands in relation to knee is the issue)

- lots of variables in play with running - sleep, diet/how much food/too much/not enough etc, weather, mental etc

- sometimes you just have a "bad" run. Move onto the next one and keep going. It can take a few runs to get it back. All normal.

- check your starting pace - very easy to go out too quick. Try to ease into it, say 10 mins easing into normal pace then see how you feel.

- check your trainers. Could be worn out and not providing correct support. Usually problems with a joint aren't due to the joint itself but other factors below and above. So for knee it can be ankle/pronation and/or hips/glutes. However start with trainers and pronation.

mcsdan

have a look at this. Really demonstrates the cadence and heel strike

mcsdan

The other point with running form is posture and position of head. If that is out then everything else tries to compensate and hence causes problems.

The idea I've thought runners is to think of a helium balloon tied to your neck. It lifts your neck and entire body straight up. Combine this with the cadence and you have 90% of running technique issues resolved. It is difficult at the end of a run to maintain form but the more you practice it the better you get.

WiresDreamDisasters

mcsdan said:

The other point with running form is posture and position of head. If that is out then everything else tries to compensate and hence causes problems.

The idea I've thought runners is to think of a helium balloon tied to your neck. It lifts your neck and entire body straight up. Combine this with the cadence and you have 90% of running technique issues resolved. It is difficult at the end of a run to maintain form but the more you practice it the better you get.

Balancing books on my head works for me. lol. Running around town imagining a stack of Harry Potters on ma bonce.

fields5069

@mcsdan  do you think someone can move from overpronating to running neutrally? I doubt it myself, although I’m in neutral daps with a bit of cushioning and feel ok. I guess it’s just that the minimal running has strengthened that which was weak?

mcsdan

The bad run point above is very important. All runners get these. You're out there running and it is a very complex movement plus some of the variables I've mentioned. It may be one run or several. Then all of a sudden you get a series of fantastic runs. It's just the nature of running and the impact on the body and mind. Keep it going and put down to experience. Work on some of the points I mentioned and keep going. Besides, this time of year is horrid to run.

I've coached lots of runners from 5k to 100 miles. They all get tough runs. Consistency is key and pat yourself on the back for being out there doing it. The long term benefits are worth it.

Hope this has been helpful.

mcsdan

fields5069 said:

@mcsdan  do you think someone can move from overpronating to running neutrally? I doubt it myself, although I’m in neutral daps with a bit of cushioning and feel ok. I guess it’s just that the minimal running has strengthened that which was weak?

Agree. it is mostly down to biomechanics. TBH overpronation is the norm for road/flat surfaces. I run mostly off road so 99% of trail trainers are neutral.  Sometimes the cushioning in road shoes can cause pronation issues e.g. hokas, since there is no firm surface to land on i.e. the cushion. The cushioning creates an uneven surface.

Minimal running tends to promote forefoot/midfoot landing. Try running with no shoes and landing on your heels. Great for walking but not running. Most modern day shoes/trainers have a massive heel/toe drop around 12mm. This creates shorted achilles and weak foot muscles/tendons and calves. Big fan of minimal/zero drop or at least a low drop. Hokas I run in are 4mm drop. Altras and inov8 are zero. It just takes a while to adjust. However I've done a 100miler in minimal/zero drop trainers.

mcsdan

About 5 years ago I did a race - Race to the Stones. 100km/62m in one go. About 5 miles in I was going up this really steep hill in a woods. Being near the start there was lots of bunching and the guy in front was barefoot. Being fairly new to running, about 15 months in, I was quite impressed by this. I asked the guy how he transitioned to it. Rather sarcstically he said he just took his trainers off and ran. He then looked the other way and didn't say a word and ran off. Very offish. Ok, fine, I was actually asking out of interest and admiration.

Anyway, about 30 miles in I passed him and could see he was wearing trainers. So asked if he was ok and his reply was that he'd cut his feet to shreds. Obviously not transitioned enough!!

On the other side I've seen runners do 100 milers in sandal style trainers. Very impressive. From what I've seen it's the bit between the toes and strap around the ankle that bothers me most. I'm down to zero drop and have some vibrams so I'm thinking about it!

@fields5069 great respect for running in sandals. I'm almost there!

fields5069

mcsdan said:

fields5069 said:

@mcsdan  do you think someone can move from overpronating to running neutrally? I doubt it myself, although I’m in neutral daps with a bit of cushioning and feel ok. I guess it’s just that the minimal running has strengthened that which was weak?

Agree. it is mostly down to biomechanics. TBH overpronation is the norm for road/flat surfaces. I run mostly off road so 99% of trail trainers are neutral.  Sometimes the cushioning in road shoes can cause pronation issues e.g. hokas, since there is no firm surface to land on i.e. the cushion. The cushioning creates an uneven surface.

Minimal running tends to promote forefoot/midfoot landing. Try running with no shoes and landing on your heels. Great for walking but not running. Most modern day shoes/trainers have a massive heel/toe drop around 12mm. This creates shorted achilles and weak foot muscles/tendons and calves. Big fan of minimal/zero drop or at least a low drop. Hokas I run in are 4mm drop. Altras and inov8 are zero. It just takes a while to adjust. However I've done a 100miler in minimal/zero drop trainers.

I think I'm back to a 4mm drop in these Asics. I'm conscious that I want to get back to sandals before I lose some strength, although they have a flat foot bed as I took the insoles out. I'm pretty sure the Inov8 F-lite 195 were causing the plantar issues unfortunately. The problem is that they are aimed at crossfit now, and I think are a bit narrow. I would probably be better in some Inov8 "barefoot" shoes, or maybe even Merell.

I do love the sandals though. The thicker type with a z-strap are the ones I gravitated towards, they have a bit more protection for uneven form, although I have a pair of the thinner thong type which feel much nicer. The foot just feels completely free in the thong type. The problem has always been rain and a slippery footbed, leading to painful abrasions.

Deadman

Steady week for me. 5x 30 min runs again. Start weight 6 Jan 14st, current weight 13st 4 lbs. 

Happy Friday everyone.

King85

mcsdan said:

About 5 years ago I did a race - Race to the Stones. 100km/62m in one go. About 5 miles in I was going up this really steep hill in a woods. Being near the start there was lots of bunching and the guy in front was barefoot. Being fairly new to running, about 15 months in, I was quite impressed by this. I asked the guy how he transitioned to it. Rather sarcstically he said he just took his trainers off and ran. He then looked the other way and didn't say a word and ran off. Very offish. Ok, fine, I was actually asking out of interest and admiration.

Anyway, about 30 miles in I passed him and could see he was wearing trainers. So asked if he was ok and his reply was that he'd cut his feet to shreds. Obviously not transitioned enough!!

On the other side I've seen runners do 100 milers in sandal style trainers. Very impressive. From what I've seen it's the bit between the toes and strap around the ankle that bothers me most. I'm down to zero drop and have some vibrams so I'm thinking about it!

@fields5069 great respect for running in sandals. I'm almost there!

I read born to run and iirc the Tarahumara tribe ran in a similar sandal.

fields5069

King85 said:

mcsdan said:

About 5 years ago I did a race - Race to the Stones. 100km/62m in one go. About 5 miles in I was going up this really steep hill in a woods. Being near the start there was lots of bunching and the guy in front was barefoot. Being fairly new to running, about 15 months in, I was quite impressed by this. I asked the guy how he transitioned to it. Rather sarcstically he said he just took his trainers off and ran. He then looked the other way and didn't say a word and ran off. Very offish. Ok, fine, I was actually asking out of interest and admiration.

Anyway, about 30 miles in I passed him and could see he was wearing trainers. So asked if he was ok and his reply was that he'd cut his feet to shreds. Obviously not transitioned enough!!

On the other side I've seen runners do 100 milers in sandal style trainers. Very impressive. From what I've seen it's the bit between the toes and strap around the ankle that bothers me most. I'm down to zero drop and have some vibrams so I'm thinking about it!

@fields5069 great respect for running in sandals. I'm almost there!

I read born to run and iirc the Tarahumara tribe ran in a similar sandal.

Yes correct, although to be honest one of the protagonists, an American they called Caballo Blanco, ran in whatever he could lay his hands on. Also worth noting are that the Tarahumara are short-arsed streaks of p*ss and they quite like Nikes too.

I don't think I could ever go truly barefoot. People run marathons in absolutely no shoes, crazy.

I think the message I got out of the whole pro-barefoot argument, is that you are better off relying as much as possible on your body, and not your shoes. Don't lock your legs out straight when landing, ditch the arch supports, land under your centre of gravity, use the shock absorbers you were born with. And don't be afraid to roll your body from side to side, efficiency isn't everything. Children run pretty well when barefoot, after all.

mcsdan

fields5069 said:

I do love the sandals though. The thicker type with a z-strap are the ones I gravitated towards, they have a bit more protection for uneven form, although I have a pair of the thinner thong type which feel much nicer. The foot just feels completely free in the thong type. The problem has always been rain and a slippery footbed, leading to painful abrasions.

The Z-strap are what I was thinking of but couldn't remember the name!! I've heard good things about those.

mcsdan

Exactly re barefoot. It's letting the body do what it is designed for. Zero drop gets closer to that as do minimal,sandals etc.

The trend with running trainers is for too much support, cushion, promoting heel strike etc.

The biggest issue is that majority of people wear shoes with some form of heel or drop. Hence the achilles tendon becomes shortened and when zero/barefoot/minimal is introduced it put big strain on the achilles.  The heel/drop also restrict the windlass mechanism of the foot which leads to injuries such as plantar fascitis, calf strains etc and out of whack biomechanics which again lead to injury.

The altra shoes I wear alot of the time, include a leaflet to show how to transition to the lower drop over a period of time and not to just start wearing them all the time. 

djspecialist

January total: 10 runs, 115km

Does anyone have advice for how to modulate training as you get closer to a race?  I'll be doing my first half marathon on March 8.  Recently I've been doing 3 runs per week: typically 1x16km and 2x6km.  I was planning to gradually extend the long run to about 20km, to give me confidence I can actually complete the race distance!  Is this a good idea, and if so should I time it so that I then back off for a while immediately before the race?

King85

As a contrast to minimal I'm currently wearing Hoka Cliftons with their extra cushioning and have found them really comfy so far.

Best trainers I ever had were Nike lunarswift 3s though

I've never tried a minimal but I'm not sure my technique would be good enough to get the most from then tbh